2/1 - jumps by opener
#1
Posted 2018-October-21, 17:39
But what the jumps actually mean seems to get glossed over. After 1♠ - 2♣:
- 3♦ + 3♥ - presumably splinters in clubs? Would 3NT still be to play?
- 3♠ - presumably setting spades as trumps and asking for a cuebid? What would 3NT then mean?
- 4♠ - what does this mean, and why would you choose it over 2♠?
- 3NT - what does this mean? Is this simply a bid you should never make (without prior agreement - if so, what's a normal agreement?)
#2
Posted 2018-October-21, 23:38
You need agreements on some of these.
I personally like jumps on this auction to show a very good 5 card side suit (4 in a pinch?. Raising clubs would allow for cue bidding, Key card or probing for the best spot.
Three spades would show 6+ semi-solid or better quality setting up a force. 3NT would be to play suggesting running tricks. Could have extras versus more than a mini 2 clubs.
I would guess that 3 NT in the other example would be a non-serious slam try, but really we need a partnership agreement.
There are undoubtedly methods that would show a singleton or void over 2 clubs perhaps unspecified.
It would be interesting to look at expert convention cards to see what they play. Thanks for this question!
#3
Posted 2018-October-22, 00:06
#4
Posted 2018-October-22, 00:34
smerriman, on 2018-October-21, 17:39, said:
But what the jumps actually mean seems to get glossed over. After 1♠ - 2♣:
- 3♦ + 3♥ - presumably splinters in clubs? Would 3NT still be to play?
- 3♠ - presumably setting spades as trumps and asking for a cuebid? What would 3NT then mean?
- 4♠ - what does this mean, and why would you choose it over 2♠?
- 3NT - what does this mean? Is this simply a bid you should never make (without prior agreement - if so, what's a normal agreement?)
My small experience suggests to analyze to the 3rd round of bidding at least to see whether you want jumps at opener's 2nd bid and what for.
One thing to keep in mind is that the typical setup of 2/1 is having a 5-card M in 1NT 15-17 HCP, which for many nowadays include a 5-4 with a minor with distributed values.
This means that a bid that shows extras is either 18+ or at least 5-4 with concentrated values and 15+, which means tricks in a side suit.
If you don't have this and do not show strength somehow, you risk missing slam when both partners are around 15. How you show this strength needs careful agreement with partner.
Assuming your 2/1 is natural, and not with artificial 2♣, the sequences you should start with are those with less space: 1♠ - 2♥ and 1♥ - 2♦.
Also, what is 1M - 2NT? I'd recommend 4-card support and either invitational or better, or game forcing. This leaves the raises through 2/1 and 1NT as only 3-cards. It is essential also to understand what partner has shown / denied.
#5
Posted 2018-October-22, 01:52
After a splinter for a minor, 3NT is still to play, what else do you want to
play with lots of wastage in the splinter suit?
Jump to 3NT: The question is, what is 2NT.
If it is split range, 12-14 or 18/19, than what do you bid with 15-17,
unless you open those hands 1NT.
3NT after 3S undiscussed suggestion to play, discussed ... no idea.
4S is to play, the difference to 2S: 4S tells partner, you want to play 4S,
2S leaves a lot door / contracts open, it is also the default bid, i.e. it
tells partner nothing new.
Jump to 3NT: The question is, what is 2NT.
If it is split range, 12-14 or 18/19, than what do you bid with 15-17,
unless you open those hands 1NT.
With kind regards
Marlowe
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#6
Posted 2018-October-22, 13:25
3D/3H: There are two common ways to play this.
Method 1: Splinter in clubs (should be 4-card club support)
Method 2: 5/5+ in spades and the bid suit with two very solid suits.
If you play that 1S/2NT is a natural, GF balanced hand a la Gitelman (using some other bid, generally 3C, to show the four-card GF raise), so that 2C strongly suggests a five-card suit, then I think the splinter is probably the better treatment. Otherwise, I don't have a strong preference.
3S: Slam-oriented with a one-loser (at most) spade suit opposite a singleton. You should play serious/non-serious 3NT at this point.
3NT: 15-17 balanced. For me, it's probably more on the 17 side, because I will generally (though not 100%) open 1NT with 15-16. With 12-14 or 18+, you start with 2NT. Then, if you have 18-19, you bid 4NT over 3NT.
4S: 7+ running spades; no 1st or 2nd round control in D or H. This "picture bid" gives partner all he needs to bid slam with:
xx AKx x AKxxxxx
and not go beyond 4S with
xxx AK xxx AKQJx
Cheers,
Mike
#7
Posted 2018-October-22, 13:37
miamijd, on 2018-October-22, 13:25, said:
3D/3H: There are two common ways to play this.
Method 1: Splinter in clubs (should be 4-card club support)
Method 2: 5/5+ in spades and the bid suit with two very solid suits.
If you play that 1S/2NT is a natural, GF balanced hand a la Gitelman (using some other bid, generally 3C, to show the four-card GF raise), so that 2C strongly suggests a five-card suit, then I think the splinter is probably the better treatment. Otherwise, I don't have a strong preference.
3S: Slam-oriented with a one-loser (at most) spade suit opposite a singleton. You should play serious/non-serious 3NT at this point.
3NT: 15-17 balanced. For me, it's probably more on the 17 side, because I will generally (though not 100%) open 1NT with 15-16. With 12-14 or 18+, you start with 2NT. Then, if you have 18-19, you bid 4NT over 3NT.
4S: 7+ running spades; no 1st or 2nd round control in D or H. This "picture bid" gives partner all he needs to bid slam with:
xx AKx x AKxxxxx
and not go beyond 4S with
xxx AK xxx AKQJx
I wouldn't be comfortable with the splinter + 2NT natural agreement, but I agree 100% with the rest.
Jumps as picture bids emphasising the potential of specific suits, non-serious 3NT after a slam interested 3S.
#8
Posted 2018-October-22, 16:21
- 2♦/2♥/3♣ = NAT. FG.
- 2♠ = NAT Dustbin bid. Might be MIN with only 5 ♠s. But could be a distributional mountain.
- 2N = BAL 18-9 or 12-14 with lead-value e.g. ♠ Q x x x x ♥ A Q ♦ K J x ♣ x x x
- 3♦/3♥ = SPL. Shortage in bid suit. Perhaps should show 5+ ♣s because responder might have 3-card suit e.g. ♠ K x x x x ♥ A ♦ x ♣ A x x x x x
- 3♠ = NAT. 13-15. Limited hand setting good 6+ suit e.g. ♠ K Q J x x x x ♥ A x x ♦ K x ♣ x. Then 3N = Serious.
- 3N = BAL. 15-17 e.g. ♠ A K Q x x ♥ J x x ♦ A J x ♣ x x
- 4♣/4♦/4♥ = (Void Auto-) SPL. Near solid ♠ suit e.g. ♠ A K Q x x x x ♥ A x ♦ J x x x ♣ -. (Alternatively 4♣ might be a picture-bid).
- 4♠ = NAT. Solid suit. Limited, No red control. ♠ A K Q J x x x ♥ Q x x ♦ x x ♣ x
Similarly, after 1♠ - 2♥ - ?? except
- 2♠ = NAT. Even more of a dustbin. Could be MIN with a second suit. e.g. ♠ A Q J x x ♥ x ♦ x x x ♣ K Q x x
- 3♣/3♦ = NAT. 5+ cards concentrated or reversing values. e.g. ♠ A K x x x ♥ x ♦ x x ♣ A K J x x
- 4♣/4♦ = SPL setting ♥.
- 4♥ = NAT. MIN. 4 ♥. Picture bid. No minor control. e.g. ♠ A K x x x ♥ K J x x ♦ x x ♣ x x
#9
Posted 2018-October-22, 16:51
pescetom, on 2018-October-22, 13:37, said:
Jumps as picture bids emphasising the potential of specific suits, non-serious 3NT after a slam interested 3S.
Splinter is a rather common treatment for 1S - 2C - 3D/H. You have to agree with your partner on what these bids mean.
Regarding 2NT natural, most people play 1S-2NT as a four-card GF raise. That's fine. Works well enough.
But a another treatment is to play 2NT as GF 12plus-15, much like in old-fashioned Goren, with 2-3 spades. Then you can use 3C as your 4-card GF raise (3D and 3H are still available for Bergen, if you like Bergen raises). The rationale here is that with 2NT being natural, 2-3 spades, 2C (and 2D for that matter) will almost always show 5-card suits. That makes it MUCH easier to find good minor-suit slams.
Not saying that is what I recommend or generally play, but it's a very good alternative treatment (Fred Gitelman, in particular, is an advocate).
Cheers,
Mike
#10
Posted 2018-October-22, 16:54
nige1, on 2018-October-22, 16:21, said:
- 2♦/2♥/2♠/3♣ = NAT. F1.
- 2♠ = NAT Dustbin bid. Might be MIn with only 5-cards. But could be a distributional mountain.
- 2N = BAL 12-14 with lead-value. Or 18-19.
- 3♦/3♥ = SPL. Shortage in bid suit. Perhaps should show 5+ ♣s because responder might have 3-card suit e.g. ♠ K x x x x ♥ A ♦ x ♣ A x x x x x
- 3♠ = NAT. 13-15 HCP. Limited hand setting good 6+ suit e.g. ♠ K Q J x x x x ♥ A x x ♦ K x ♣ x
- 3N = BAL. 15-17 e.g. ♠ A K Q x x ♥ J x x ♦ A J x ♣ x x
- 4♣/4♦/4♥ = (Void Auto-) SPL. Near solid ♠ suit e.g. ♠ A K Q x x x x ♥ A x ♦ J x x x ♣ -. (Alternatively 4♣ might be a picture-bid).
- 4♠ = NAT. Solid suit. Limited, No red control. ♠ A K Q J x x x ♥ Q x x ♦ x x ♣ x
Similarly, after 1♠ - 2♥ - ?? except
- 2♠ = NAT Could be MIN with a second suit.
- 3♣/3♦ = NAT. 5+ cards concentrated or reversing values.
3S needs to be a slammish hand with a solid or near-solid suit. Otherwise you have no bid for that hand. This is pretty standard.
What 4C/D/H mean depend on (a) whether you play splinters at the 3-level (I like them) and (b) what key-card ask you use with minors (I like kickback, some use Minorwood, some stick to 4NT).
Cheers,
mike
#11
Posted 2018-October-22, 20:18
Btw I prefer 2♦ rather than 2♠ to be the catchall, and this makes the case for 3♦ natural stronger. Obviously this is not standard.
#12
Posted 2018-October-22, 21:09
#13
Posted 2018-October-22, 21:54
msjennifer, on 2018-October-22, 21:09, said:
You just mean slam right? You're already forced to game.
msjennifer, on 2018-October-22, 21:09, said:
"Natural bidding" just means systems like 2/1 or SAYC, as opposed to artificial systems (strong club). Not that you have no artificial bids!
#14
Posted 2018-October-22, 22:00
P_Marlowe, on 2018-October-22, 01:52, said:
2S leaves a lot door / contracts open, it is also the default bid, i.e. it
tells partner nothing new.
But you can also show that by bidding 2♠, then 3♠, then 4♠.
The other definitions provided for 4♠ (strong suit, no red control) sound useful.
#15
Posted 2018-October-23, 08:05
miamijd, on 2018-October-22, 16:51, said:
For us it's just another strong 2-suiter, putting emphasis on quality and the second suit probably 5-card.
miamijd, on 2018-October-22, 16:51, said:
But a another treatment is to play 2NT as GF 12plus-15, much like in old-fashioned Goren, with 2-3 spades. Then you can use 3C as your 4-card GF raise (3D and 3H are still available for Bergen, if you like Bergen raises). The rationale here is that with 2NT being natural, 2-3 spades, 2C (and 2D for that matter) will almost always show 5-card suits. That makes it MUCH easier to find good minor-suit slams.
We play 2NT as an invitational raise in spades, still on after interference in which case it is certainly 4-card.
We can GF with an artificial 2C and reveal fit later if necessary.
miamijd, on 2018-October-22, 16:54, said:
Exactly. For us, 4C/D/H are splinters over a major, but 4C over diamonds or 4D over clubs are Kickback (Crosswood).
#16
Posted 2018-October-25, 11:41
1M then 3M: extras, 6+ length, setting trumps. suit is playable for 0-1 losers opposite a stiff
1M then 2M then 4M: extras but bad trumps
1M then 4M: I have never done this but picture sounds good
1M then 3N: 15-17 unbal (stiff in partner's suit)
https://www.youtube....hungPlaysBridge
#17
Posted 2018-October-26, 11:40
helene_t, on 2018-October-22, 20:18, said:
If 2♦ is catchall, with which I agree, you do not need 2NT as well. All balanced or semibalnced hands can bid 2♦ first.
Play a rebid of 2NT as showing diamonds. A big advantage is that responder can agree diamonds with 3♦ now.
Obviously this is not standard, but logical and effective.
Rainer Herrmann
#18
Posted 2018-October-27, 04:45
1♠-2♣; ?:
2♦ = 4+ D or BAL or 3-suited
...2♥ = catchall (i.e. a 1-under transfer analogue of 2♠ over 1♠-2♣; 2♥)
......2♠ = BAL or 3-suited
......2N+ = 4+ D, 2-suited. Patterning out?
...2♠+: "1-under transfer analogues of 2N+ over 1♠-2♣; 2♥"
......step 1 = BAL or 3-suited
......step 2+ = 4+ D, 2-suited
2♥ = 4+ H, 2-suited
...2♠ = catchall
......2N+ = patterning out?
...2N+ = something
2♠ = 6+ S, 1-suited
2N+ = 4+ C, 2-suited. Patterning out?
? Then Opener has the same amount of space available to describe 2-suiters regardless of what his second suit is.
Something similer can be played over 1♥-2♣, but then there will be fewer H+S 2-suiters to describe.
#19
Posted 2018-October-28, 09:57
nullve, on 2018-October-27, 04:45, said:
1♠-2♣; ?:
2♦ = 4+ D or BAL or 3-suited
...2♥ = catchall (i.e. a 1-under transfer analogue of 2♠ over 1♠-2♣; 2♥)
......2♠ = BAL or 3-suited
......2N+ = 4+ D, 2-suited. Patterning out?
...2♠+: "1-under transfer analogues of 2N+ over 1♠-2♣; 2♥"
......step 1 = BAL or 3-suited
......step 2+ = 4+ D, 2-suited
2♥ = 4+ H, 2-suited
...2♠ = catchall
......2N+ = patterning out?
...2N+ = something
2♠ = 6+ S, 1-suited
2N+ = 4+ C, 2-suited. Patterning out?
? Then Opener has the same amount of space available to describe 2-suiters regardless of what his second suit is.
Something similer can be played over 1♥-2♣, but then there will be fewer H+S 2-suiters to describe.
Of course you can move to a completely artificial system after 2/1 game forcing.
In the end it will not be much different to a relay system.
Playing natural is not space efficient.
I prefer a compromise.
Responders 2/1 responses show 5 cards in hearts and diamonds and 2♣ denies 5 cards in the other suits, so is either a club suit or anything else including if you like Jacoby type hands but .
Over responders first bid I employ a switch bid.
The next highest bid shows a balanced or semi-balnced or a minimum hand.
2NT shows the suit which gets lost by the next highest bid.
That way opener will repsond ,most often with the next highest bid.
Responder rebids are now, say after 1♥-2♣-2♦
Two of openers major does not promise 3 card support but is simply a waiting bid to let opener describe his hand further and bid a 4 card side suit or 2NT (with 5332 or sometimes 5422 with strong doubletons and a poor 4 card suit).
Two in the other major shows at least 5 clubs. Opener is expected to bid 3♣ with Hxx or better. (If you need better support bid openers major)
Since responder has denied 5 cards in diamonds you can play that 3♦ agrees openers major with a Jacoby like hand.
This is space efficient
Rainer Herrmann