[ahydra]

IMPs, vul vs not

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1NT = 12-14
2NT = weak takeout to 3C or 3D
3C = p/c

Would you bid here (or on the previous round)? No special system here, double of 2NT would just confuse your partner completely :-), double of 3D is takeout.

Thanks,

ahydra

[pescetom]

If partner didn't actually tell me "do not double 2NT takeout to minors" I would do it anyway, if I was going to do anything at this vulnerability. I can't see how it could mean anything except both majors.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2019-March-12, 05:48, said:

If partner didn't actually tell me "do not double 2NT takeout to minors" I would do it anyway, if I was going to do anything at this vulnerability. I can't see how it could mean anything except both majors.

If 2N was both minors, this would be clear, it looks like it's either minor which is not quite so clear.

[Tramticket]

I would have opened a Lucas 2♥ showing a two-suiter.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2019-March-12, 06:10, said:

I would have opened a Lucas 2♥ showing a two-suiter.

We don't open weak bids with 2 aces otherwise I'd have opened this.

[gszes]

4d both majors

WHY so much you might reasonably ask? LHO 12-14 RHO around 6 (much more than that and they have to be thinking 3n with a 6 card minor). You have a solid 8 count (ie not hurt by having the 12 - 14 behind you). That leaves partner with around 13 behind the NT opener which means their hand is probably worth closer to 15.5. The opps have a 8 9 or even 10 card dia fit so it seems reasonable we have at least 1 8 if not 2 8 card major suit fits or one longer than 8. We are close to game and this is IMPS so we push a bit with our 4d bid. Foolproof? Hardly but we can always blame the backs of the cards for keeping us in perpetual confusion.

Why not pass the decision around to partner they have heard the bidding and can balance right? Maybe, would you balance with Kx KQxx xxx AQxx worrying about partner bidding spades opposite our doubleton? Opposite that hand we might even make 6 on a good day.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-March-12, 06:14, said:

We don't open weak bids with 2 aces otherwise I'd have opened this.

I assume you alert when you do open a weak 2 bid. The opps are entitled to know that you deny two aces, since your partner knows this. They are entitled to know this whether they are declaring or defending.

I did have a laugh, however, because this reminded me of a discussion I had with some flight B friends of mine years ago. 'We don't open weak twos with a side Ace' (I'm not implying that you are a flight B player, btw!)

I said: Ok you are in first seat vulnerable and pick up KQ10xxx xx xxx Ax

What do you bid? They both said: 2S

[mikeh]

I very much doubt that 2N showed a 'weak' hand, even if the opps explained it as such.

I would be willing to bet that it shows a hand that prefers to play 3m rather than 1N, which is not the same thing at all.

x xxx AJx KJxxxx

That is a 2N bid, intending to pass 3C. I would hardly call it 'weak': our side has the majority of hcp, but 3N is a long way off and I surely don't want to let the opps compete in a major, at the 2 level.

This comment has nothing to do with what I would choose with the OP hand, since responder would bid the same way with x xxx xxx Jxxxxx

I have played a lot of weak 1N methods, in several partnerships, and the ability to jam the auction with a wide range of responding hands is one of the upsides to the method.

Imagine responder with 3=3=6=1 9 count and we compete. We could bemgoing for 500 or more against a partscore.

Imagine responder with a 1=3=6=3 3 count: we've just missed a vulnerable game if we pass

As for earlier action, while it is so easy to say that double of 2N is a major suit takeout, my suspicion is that the same players who make that argument would, were the hand KQx AJxx AJx Kxx, say that clearly the double shows a strong notrump type of hand

Now, will partner do if we double?

He may well be 3=3=3=4 or (32) 4=4 or some 3325 with 5 clubs. If he has 4 diamonds and values, he'll defend. Obviously we are laughing if he has a 4 card major: he can bid 3M or 4M. What if he bids 4C? Ugh, since that may well fetch a double from responder.


So part of me, the part with the chicken DNA, says stay stuck. The other part of me says that it is dangerous to bid but more dangerous to pass. So I double and take my chances.

Btw, I reject 4D. Yes, it shows both majors, but why on earth do we think that partner has an opening hand? And it he does, is he incapable of looking at it after we double 3D?

The notion that opps will look for 3N holding a 7 or 8 count with a 6 card minor makes me laugh. I'd love to play against those pairs at any form of scoring.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2019-March-12, 09:46, said:

I assume you alert when you do open a weak 2 bid. The opps are entitled to know that you deny two aces, since your partner knows this. They are entitled to know this whether they are declaring or defending.

I did have a laugh, however, because this reminded me of a discussion I had with some flight B friends of mine years ago. 'We don't open weak twos with a side Ace' (I'm not implying that you are a flight B player, btw!)

I said: Ok you are in first seat vulnerable and pick up KQ10xxx xx xxx Ax

What do you bid? They both said: 2S

We alert because they can also be 4 cards long And with a 5-5 with 2 aces we're only a fraction short of a 1 opener in our style, we tend to open 1 with most rule of 19 hands unless there's a good reason not to.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2019-March-12, 10:01, said:

As for earlier action, while it is so easy to say that double of 2N is a major suit takeout, my suspicion is that the same players who make that argument would, were the hand KQx AJxx AJx Kxx, say that clearly the double shows a strong notrump type of hand

Not by a passed hand it doesn't

[rmnka447]

Ah, the confusion that reigns when the opponents open a weak NT.

I disagree with the notion that responder is on just a few points with a 6 card suit if a runout to 3 of a minor is made. The idea that with some values and a long minor 3 NT comes into view isn't right. A hand with a broken 6 card suit can have some values and still run from 1 NT to the minor. Part of that is to take away any chance of letting the opponents find a major part score. Part also may be that 3 of a minor with a known 8+ card fit might play better than 1 NT. Something like Kxx xx Q109xxx Kx may be reasonably typical. Of course, it's possible that responder could be on xxx xx QJxxxx xx also. Therein lies the problem, the runout has spread a lot of fog in the auction and you're scrambling blindly.

Essentially, a weak NT is a hand that opener might bid 1 NT on after opening 1 of a minor if playing strong NTs. I don't see many people inviting 3 NT opposite those hands with a 6 card minor and 8-9 count.

The only clue you have from the auction is that partner was unable to "double" 1 NT. Many people tend to use that use that to show a similar hand to the weak NT but toward the top of the range (decent 14+). If that's the agreement, then stepping into this auction has gotten more dangerous.

The hand OP gave is 5-5 in the majors with 2 As. But rather than the stiff ♦ A, I'd much rather have a small ♦ and the ♠ A. For me, 10xxxx is a bad holding for competing at the 3 level with no assurance of at least half the points.

I'm going to be chicken and pass. If I would compete, it would have to be with a double hoping partner can bid a major. 4 ♦ to play in a major with no assurance that your side has any more than half the points is overly aggressive.

BTW, this hand illustrates why the runout to a minor is effective. If the auction goes P-1 NT-P-P-?, I'm sure more than few people would find a bid showing the majors. But, of course, responder could have passed with a square hand and values but not quite enough to bid game and 2 of major might also be gruesome. Pay your money take your chances.

[nige1]

ahydra asks 'IMPs, vul vs not. Would you bid here (or on the previous round)?'
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

IMO you should double 3♦ -- and doubling 2N would have been even safer.

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[dsLawsd]

Why did not partner do something over 1 NT? He should not be so strong as to make a game likely- but that might change if you bid your best major or double if OK in your system. Bidding earlier by either North or South would be safer yes?

[msjennifer]

SIR,with the given conditions i.e.weak NT, Vul against non, and the given hand we bid over 2NT as follows 3C -BOTH majors better hearts 3D-BOTH majors better spades.So holding North cards I would bid 3C.

[Cyberyeti]

msjennifer, on 2019-March-13, 03:53, said:

SIR,with the given conditions i.e.weak NT, Vul against non, and the given hand we bid over 2NT as follows 3C -BOTH majors better hearts 3D-BOTH majors better spades.So holding North cards I would bid 3C.

So what do you do with a 7 card club suit, 2N is one minor NOT both

[IGoHomeNow]

I will double 2NT and pull 3 of a minor. Partner might be confused about my holding, but since I am passed hand, the pull to 3H should clarify things. But to be honest, the double seems like it could be 3 suited. On the other hand, I would probably wait till I know their suit before taking action with 4405 or similar.

I do think this hand texture is ideal for competing and so it is worth the risks.

[msjennifer]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-March-13, 05:08, said:

So what do you do with a 7 card club suit, 2N is one minor NOT both

SIR I fully expected this query.1) with a club suit and of course a weak hand since we passed once already(I do not know why as with a decent 7 carded club suit practically every one does open 3C not pass.) we pass since opponents can always easily bid 3D. .(2)With a Diamond suit we pass and bid 3D if it goes 3C-PASS-PASS if we wish to bid it at all.(if we forgot to open the hand as 3D)

[Cyberyeti]

msjennifer, on 2019-March-13, 10:07, said:

SIR I fully expected this query.1) with a club suit and of course a weak hand since we passed once already(I do not know why as with a decent 7 carded club suit practically every one does open 3C not pass.) we pass since opponents can always easily bid 3D. .(2)With a Diamond suit we pass and bid 3D if it goes 3C-PASS-PASS if we wish to bid it at all.(if we forgot to open the hand as 3D)

You can be too good for 3♣ and not good enough for 1♣ the way some people play (particularly in a 2/1 context where opening bids in general are often a bit better than they are for me).

[msjennifer]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-March-13, 10:22, said:

You can be too good for 3♣ and not good enough for 1♣ the way some people play (particularly in a 2/1 context where opening bids in general are often a bit better than they are for me).

Sir.I agree with you.BUT I could not construct a vulnerable hand which could neither open 1C or 3C with a 7 carded suit and now dare wants to compete at the three level on it. As also there is no mention of any 2/1 in the conditions given in the OP.I may humbly mention here that we dislike the 2/1 theory.W e do play the GAZZILLI and other gadgets borrowed from the Super Precision system and encorporated by us in SAYC I have merely stated how we face the problem given in the OP.I have not the slightest intentions to suggest others use it.

[ahydra]

Thanks all. Looks like I should be a bit braver, most people voted for double but I passed. (As rmnka447 said, it would be a much more appealing double if the DA was the SA.) Partner had AQJ 963 92 KQ654, opener had the SK and CA and so 4S was cold. No harm done though, 3D went -1 and the other table had the same contract and result.

ahydra