[zzxjoanw]

When I was a complete novice to bridge, a more experienced friend recommended that I read the book "Standard Bidding with SAYC" by Ned Downey and Ellen Pomer. It assumes that the reader knows the rules of bridge and is familiar with HCP and total points (i.e., HCP + distribution points) but not much else. It covers the basics of natural bidding plus a few of the most common conventions (Stayman, Jacoby transfers, fourth suit forcing, Michaels, Unusual 2NT, takeout doubles, negative doubles, Blackwood).

Now I am in a similar situation of being an experienced player trying to teach a novice how to bid. I want to buy her a book that, like "Standard Bidding with SAYC", explains the principles of natural bidding (so sequences like 1M-2M-4M, 1M-3M-4M, 1M-2M-3M-4M, 1m-1M-2M-4M, etc. will make sense to her) and the most common conventions but is based on 2/1 instead of SAYC. So I'm not looking for something like the Hardy or Lawrence books that go through the system in excruciating detail.

I tried searching the web but I couldn't find what I'm looking for. So now I am being lazy and asking the BBO community for recommendations.

[Vampyr]

 zzxjoanw, on 2019-July-07, 16:10, said:

When I was a complete novice to bridge, a more experienced friend recommended that I read the book "Standard Bidding with SAYC" by Ned Downey and Ellen Pomer. It assumes that the reader knows the rules of bridge and is familiar with HCP and total points (i.e., HCP + distribution points) but not much else. It covers the basics of natural bidding plus a few of the most common conventions (Stayman, Jacoby transfers, fourth suit forcing, Michaels, Unusual 2NT, takeout doubles, negative doubles, Blackwood).

Now I am in a similar situation of being an experienced player trying to teach a novice how to bid. I want to buy her a book that, like "Standard Bidding with SAYC", explains the principles of natural bidding (so sequences like 1M-2M-4M, 1M-3M-4M, 1M-2M-3M-4M, 1m-1M-2M-4M, etc. will make sense to her) and the most common conventions but is based on 2/1 instead of SAYC. So I'm not looking for something like the Hardy or Lawrence books that go through the system in excruciating detail.

I tried searching the web but I couldn't find what I'm looking for. So now I am being lazy and asking the BBO community for recommendations.

Could you just use the book that you have, and then discuss the ditterences?

[FelicityR]

Found on Amazon.com website:-

https://www.amazon.c...=gateway&sr=8-4

This is a excellent customer review of Audrey Grant's 2/1 book, referencing Paul Thurston's book

Very well written reference, characteristic of all Audrey Grant and Eric Rodwell material.

It does assume more than basic knowledge of Standard American system, and of bridge in general. This makes it a book for intermediate players. It is not for the beginners, though I suppose 2/1 is really only for advancing players since it is an extension of, and an evolution from SA. In that respect, I would suggest "25 Steps to Learning 2/1 (Master Point Press)." I would give that book 5 stars. If you were to buy only one, I would suggest Paul Thurston's book, which 'talks down to you' by design.


And as Vampyr correctly points out, SAYC players usually change to 2/1 over time (as I have, too) so your SAYC book is a good starting point for any new player.

[Vampyr]

 FelicityR, on 2019-July-07, 20:14, said:

And as Vampyr correctly points out, SAYC players usually change to 2/1 over time (as I have, too) so your SAYC book is a good starting point for any new player.

I said nothing of the sort. I see no reason why a person who wishes to play 2/1GF should learn Standard American first. Particularly as the latter is more difficult and requires more discussion, since you have to discuss a multitude of 2/1 auctions nd work out how to force to game and how to stay out of game,

And nobody should learn SAYC. The Yellow Card was meant to be a simple playable system for “no fear” events, and possibly for individuals. But it was designed by a committee, and it seems like everyone stuck their oar in and added one or more conventions that they considered “essential”, resulting in a mess. You can play with takeout doubles, Stayman, Jordan, 4SAF and possibly some form of Checkback, and go a long time before you feel that you need more conventions, and that they are worth giving up the meaning you currently have for a bid. (My personal opinion is that combined with that it is best to play 2/1 either GF or Acol-style.)
.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I am not sure the above link is correct, here the amazon link to the 2/1 book by Grant and Rodwell, so I am reposting it

https://www.amazon.c...l%2C+Eric+Grant


I dont know the book, and I dont know books written by Grant, but she focusses on teaching, and since several years,
so I would buy it blind, ..., it does not hurt, that most speak with high regards about her books.

It is certainly a good idea, to take a newer book, ..., your old book would still work, but it may teach some
conventions in a way, that is going out of fashion ( like FSF not GF, the way I prefer it, but it is going out
of fashion), non-forcing 1NT response to a major opening instead of semi-forcing (or forcing) 1 NT response, and
reducing some requirements for making certain bids, e.g. opening may require 13+ ( the newer books may just require
11/12+), overcalling requirements, responding to overcalls, ...

Most of those things are minor, and the effects are quite often hard to pin down in a consistent way, hopefully
a good book has a consistent setup ... if it is a good book, it should.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pescetom]

 zzxjoanw, on 2019-July-07, 16:10, said:

When I was a complete novice to bridge, a more experienced friend recommended that I read the book "Standard Bidding with SAYC" by Ned Downey and Ellen Pomer. It assumes that the reader knows the rules of bridge and is familiar with HCP and total points (i.e., HCP + distribution points) but not much else. It covers the basics of natural bidding plus a few of the most common conventions (Stayman, Jacoby transfers, fourth suit forcing, Michaels, Unusual 2NT, takeout doubles, negative doubles, Blackwood).

Now I am in a similar situation of being an experienced player trying to teach a novice how to bid. I want to buy her a book that, like "Standard Bidding with SAYC", explains the principles of natural bidding (so sequences like 1M-2M-4M, 1M-3M-4M, 1M-2M-3M-4M, 1m-1M-2M-4M, etc. will make sense to her) and the most common conventions but is based on 2/1 instead of SAYC. So I'm not looking for something like the Hardy or Lawrence books that go through the system in excruciating detail.

I tried searching the web but I couldn't find what I'm looking for. So now I am being lazy and asking the BBO community for recommendations.

An excellent reference book on natural bidding is "la logica del bridge naturale" by Franco di Stefano, no idea if it ever got translated into English as it deserved.
If there is no English equivalent then the web pages of Richard Pavlicek or "Bridge bid and made" are not at all bad, combined with a bit of explanation and practice with a deck of cards.

[MaxHayden]

I've tried finding something in this vein but I can't.

I want something of equivalent quality to Lampert's books and Bill Root's Common Sense bidding. Hardy's Standard Bidding and the ACBL software is way too ponderous.

If there isn't something that teaches 2/1 is there something that teaches something comparably modern? I'd love something that teaches Rigal's Precision. But if someone found a way to construct a very simple relay system, I'd be down for that as well. Essentially what I want is something that teaches reasoning about the game and some basic principles instead of a giant bidding tree that needs memorizing.

Is it really too much to ask that someone take Lampert and Root and just update the point ranges and bidding rules? Dorothy Truscott has an entire book that does just that, more or less. And Root's conventions book has plenty of material to update his bidding book with.

Several people have said the Polish Club is fairly natural. I don't see how, but I'd be willing to try teaching with it if I could find a quality work.

IDK, but accessibility to the game seems like a major barrier.

The same holds for card play. Kantar's Introduction books are great, but there's not much by way of follow up. The skill jump to the more compressive books is pretty significant and Watson is slow as hell.

I really do think that something like LC Standard or a very simple Precision is less complex than SA or even Goren. But I don't see such a book in the wild. So maybe I'm just wrong.

If anyone has ideas, I'd love to hear them.

[blackshoe]

"Ponderous" is a pretty good description of Hardy's writing style. Still, that's a pretty comprehensive description of the basics.

The Grant/Rodwell book is decent, though as I recall I disagreed with some of it (I'm not an expert, so that opinion probably shouldn't matter ).

"Twenty-five steps to 2/1" is probably your best bet.

[MaxHayden]

As a basic 2/1 book Grant/Rodwell is fine. But it assumes you already know a lot of material. I don't see why that couldn't be a standarized presentation from the outset though.

Who holds the copyright to Root's books, maybe we can just update them?

[sfi]

 MaxHayden, on 2019-August-31, 01:58, said:

Who holds the copyright to Root's books, maybe we can just update them?

Presumably Root's descendants - copyright on most of his books will expire 70 years after death. His first three books will enter public domain in the 2060's though.

[HeavyDluxe]

Would there be any interest in crowdsourcing such a guide? I put together a ton of notes when I was part of a lesson group years ago, but it was pre-2/1 as truly standard. I'm trying to update that now for my own return and, hopefully, as a help to others if/when I'm done.

If others would like to contribute... Many hands, light work and all that.

[MaxHayden]

 HeavyDluxe, on 2019-September-01, 15:43, said:

Would there be any interest in crowdsourcing such a guide? I put together a ton of notes when I was part of a lesson group years ago, but it was pre-2/1 as truly standard. I'm trying to update that now for my own return and, hopefully, as a help to others if/when I'm done.

If others would like to contribute... Many hands, light work and all that.

I'm super-busy until December-ish. But I'd be totally down for it. I'll think on it until then.

[sharon j]

I consider myself a novice bridge player. I learned SYAC from the same book you referenced. There is an excellent bridge teacher in the BIL (Beginner, Intermediate Lounge) using the name Hondo.
This is a link to his website ( www.bridgesights.com/hondobridge/) which has very valuable information about bridge. If you select "Lesson Series" on his home page there is another link for "2 over 1". It's a great place to learn the basics of this system.

[tm255]

 zzxjoanw, on 2019-July-07, 16:10, said:

When I was a complete novice to bridge, a more experienced friend recommended that I read the book "Standard Bidding with SAYC" by Ned Downey and Ellen Pomer. It assumes that the reader knows the rules of bridge and is familiar with HCP and total points (i.e., HCP + distribution points) but not much else. It covers the basics of natural bidding plus a few of the most common conventions (Stayman, Jacoby transfers, fourth suit forcing, Michaels, Unusual 2NT, takeout doubles, negative doubles, Blackwood).

Now I am in a similar situation of being an experienced player trying to teach a novice how to bid. I want to buy her a book that, like "Standard Bidding with SAYC", explains the principles of natural bidding (so sequences like 1M-2M-4M, 1M-3M-4M, 1M-2M-3M-4M, 1m-1M-2M-4M, etc. will make sense to her) and the most common conventions but is based on 2/1 instead of SAYC. So I'm not looking for something like the Hardy or Lawrence books that go through the system in excruciating detail.

I tried searching the web but I couldn't find what I'm looking for. So now I am being lazy and asking the BBO community for recommendations.

If OP is still looking, Beginning Bridge Using 2 over 1 by Jim Ricker IMO fits the bill.

[MaxHayden]

 tm255, on 2019-September-04, 13:34, said:

If OP is still looking, Beginning Bridge Using 2 over 1 by Jim Ricker IMO fits the bill.

I have this. It's okay. But it's too text-book-y for my taste. (Though it's an excellent textbook that shows that this can be done.)

We Love the Majors is my current favorite intro book. It teaches (most of) standard American. I still don't know why anyone is teaching it that way. They gloss over some of the rarer circumstances that are hard to do without conventions. But because they are separating the major and minor suit bidding anyway, I don't see why they don't just go all-in and teach 2/1 in response to the majors. (And just gloss over 1♦-2♣.)

I haven't looked at Wanna Play Bridge the 2/1 Way?. Anyone tried it?

I'm not wedded to teaching 2/1 though. My thinking on bidding systems is that it's a matter of how many different contexts and principles the players need to learn before they can use it.

So if someone could make *very* simplified relay system that always did the exact same stuff, I'd be down for it.

And part of me thinks that there's a really simple version of Fantunes waiting to be found. After all, there are some (older) books that are very solid introductions to Precision as well that I'd love to use if they were updated.