[phoenixmj]

We play a strong NT open - 15-17

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We had this hand yesterday and my partner opened 1NT - strong - 15-17 points balanced hand.

My hand is strong opposite this open, but I am hesitant to suggest NT, but depending on partner's hand, I am also reluctant to suggest we play in a minor.

We used to have a bid of 3c that would suggest 5-5 minors invitational, and 3d would suggest 5-5 minors game force. We have adopted 3c as puppet stayman so our 3d jump is a bit undecided. We need to discuss further but I think we will conclude that 3D over 1N must be a forcing bid - at least 1 round. Even with this bid in place, I might find out where my partner would like to play the hand but I don't know the strength and I really do want to know about aces and about points.

Meanwhile, we did not have that understanding.

With my hand I want us to be in game and frankly, possible slam if partner fills in the appropriate blanks.

Our bidding got confused because I bid 2S - which we treat as a size ask that doubles as a club transfer. This is a relatively new bid for us and we needed to read more about subsequent bids. My partner showed a maximum bid by transferring to clubs. Then we got messed up (I think we had not decided how to treat a hand like this) so I am very interested as to how we should have bid this.

[pescetom]

I sympathise with you, as it is not difficult to construct 1NT hands that make slam here. But it sounds like your remaining 3D bid would have done the job - if it shows 5-5 minors then it has to be game forcing, stopping on a dime in 4m would be bad bridge and unnecessary stress IMO. If I thought partner would not remember that bid then I would just bid 3NT which is quite likely to be the best place.

[apollo1201]

What would 3D show above the 2S answer? Seems a nice way to show GF 55 minors and let partner assess (3NT with lot of stuff in the M, give you a fit and see if greater things happen...).
Then you can use 1NT-3D for other stuff. 4414 GF, strong Xfer to H, 55M invitational...
When you change some sequences, you also need to work on the inferences and consequences on other sequences too!

[pescetom]

 apollo1201, on 2020-January-31, 12:46, said:

What would 3D show above the 2S answer? Seems a nice way to show GF 55 minors and let partner assess (3NT with lot of stuff in the M, give you a fit and see if greater things happen...).

Not sure about OP but the way we play Range Ask/Clubs, 3D would be a GF splinter and 4D would be kickback. Yes one of the two might be sacrificed for this, worth some thought.

[phoenixmj]

 apollo1201, on 2020-January-31, 12:46, said:

What would 3D show above the 2S answer? Seems a nice way to show GF 55 minors and let partner assess (3NT with lot of stuff in the M, give you a fit and see if greater things happen...).
Then you can use 1NT-3D for other stuff. 4414 GF, strong Xfer to H, 55M invitational...
When you change some sequences, you also need to work on the inferences and consequences on other sequences too!

We also play it as a splinter. Short in diamonds.

[phoenixmj]

We wound up playing 4NT - due to miscommunication that actually worked out OK. We made 6 NT and it makes 7D and 7C.

I wanted to ask for aces and after my partner told me he had a maximum 1nt - I thought I needed to explore slam but go only if he had aces. I said 4NT and much to my surprise, it got passed. We had never really discussed this type of a hand and bids after the 3C rebid. I thought that the only thing it could be was an ace ask, but he was thinking it must mean if you have a really strong 17 go to 6 - and he was missing an AK in clubs so he did not go.

[dsLawsd]

Zia uses the following bids:
2NT shows ♦/3♦says opener likes/
3♣ shows minors. better clubs Game Force
3♦ shows minors, better diamonds, Game Force
3♥ singleton GF with 3 or 4 spades.
3♠ 1-4-4-4 GF

2♠ is either range ask or clubs...

Just in case that is to your liking.

[msjennifer]

Sir.We have a different method.
1NT--2NT Tr to D
3D--3H/S double suiters with slam ambition D and the bid major.
4C D and C ,slam ambition better D
1NT- --2S Tr to C
3C---3D D AND C SLAM AM,BITION and better clubs
3H/S C and the bid major ,slam ambition
Quoting here a hand we bid and no one else did.
3S showed D/S DOUBLE SUITER. 4D agreed D.5C was 3 keys.5H was queen ask 6C said DQ,SK BUT NO HK.So the earlier 4H cue meant Hx. And we could count 13 tricks in D.By the way WEST held the HK. and 7NT would fail.

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[apollo1201]

 phoenixmj, on 2020-January-31, 15:46, said:

We wound up playing 4NT - due to miscommunication that actually worked out OK. We made 6 NT and it makes 7D and 7C.

. I wanted to ask for aces and after my partner told me he had a maximum 1nt - I thought I needed to explore slam but go only if he had aces. I said 4NT and much to my surprise, it got passed. We had never really discussed this type of a hand and bids after the 3C rebid. I thought that the only thing it could be was an ace ask, but he was thinking it must mean if you have a really strong 17 go to 6 - and he was missing an AK in clubs so he did not go.

I am not sure having sequences like:
- are you min or max?
- Max!
- are you sure?
is a good use of bidding space🤣🤣🤣

After a 1st quantitative question (2S), there cannot be an other quantitative ask (4NT). So even undiscussed, I’d treat 4NT now to be BW for C, the suit you implied by bidding 2S (range ask or C).

From your answer to my prior post, I see you can splinter in D and for sure in M’s too. So why not do it now rather than BW which is a little premature (aces will not let you know a lot about partner’s hand and C fit / D help required to run a lot of tricks), and see what partner thinks.

If he doesn’t bid 3NT, all good. If he bids 3NT, maybe now 4D should do the job, sth like ok, you don’t like my C too much, ok, my singleton doesn’t really worry you, what if I also have D? Then if he bids 4NT on that too bad but we’ll have taken all our chances for *both* minor slams at the expense of playing 1 level higher in a contract that doesn’t look like a piece of cake but is not desperate.

The comparison of your splinter and mine over the C transfer (2S for me is only for C) makes me think of sth. I’ll expose you but it looks like promising but memory risk🤣

[apollo1201]

 phoenixmj, on 2020-January-31, 15:42, said:

We also play it as a splinter. Short in diamonds.

For what I play with partner, 2S is C transfer only (2NT is the natural invite). Except when partner bids 2NT (Hxx fit and other suits reasonably and quickly stopped to shoot for a miracle 3NT if have HHxxxx), I have two splinters for D:
- 3NT (passable), as with a 6322 hand limited to game prospects, you presumably don’t show the m and go straight to the most likely and easy 9-trick game, so no need for a natural meaning of 3NT here
- 4D (strong slam interest)
- 3M being singleton in the other M

So that 3D is natural, 55, GF and still below 3NT.

With the range ask, 3NT has to be the hand that tried for game and had the good news from partner max range, so balanced 8-9 HCPs w/o majors.

So what I thought is 3D as a 2-way bid, either nat or spl. Opener can relay 3H and all ends well still below 3NT, 3NT = D shortage, passable, 3S = 55 minors, forcing, unlimited (has to be this way in case opener is’very strong).

I am currently trying to find a good comprehensive follow-up set on 1NT but am not sure it exists... especially now we tend to open 1NT with 5cM from times to times if the hand texture is appealing. Giving up the 2NT natural to become D transfer and use 3C for puppet is probably a 1st move so 2S range ask has to be incorporated into our arsenal. But we still have to cater for hand types that we handed well before. Not easy task😰

[nekthen]

I play 2s as range ask but could be about to show weak single suited minor or 5-5 GF
2N as strong single minor or weak 5-5 This leaves 3c puppet and other 3 bids are GF with 45 54 in minors

[igt3]

We use 2♠ asking for the minors. Opener bids 2NT with same length or longer diamonds and 3♣ with longer clubs. After opener´s rebid responder passes or bids 3m with a one suited weak hand.
With both minors, like yours, he bids 3♥ or 3♠ showing shortness. (3NT shows slam interest with a long clubs and 4♣ with long diamonds.)
After 3M opener can bid 3NT with no slam interest in a minor or setting trump with 4♣ or 4♦.
This works more often than not.

[fromageGB]

 apollo1201, on 2020-February-01, 02:47, said:

...Giving up the 2NT natural to become D transfer and use 3C for puppet is probably a 1st move so 2S range ask has to be incorporated into our arsenal. But we still have to cater for hand types that we handed well before. Not easy task.

I would agree with you that a range ask of 2♠ is a bad decision if you want to combine it with something else. If you play that it could also be a takeout to clubs, then after a 2NT reply you are completely botching the hand by playing 3♣ from the wrong side. Much much better to play pure transfers, which can be used weak or strong. Then 2♠ could be a single-purpose range ask, or better still, use it as asking for a 4 card minor which is what I would do with the OP hand. If partner has one (bids 3m)I would just immediately bid 4m+1 ace ask, otherwise drop out in 3NT.

That minor suit stayman means you need to do something else with a range ask, so you could start with 2♣ for majors followed by 2NT natural invitation, or rethink your 1♣ structure. The whole system has to fit together, but if your 1NT is a 2-point range it makes life easy all round when you have no invites anywhere.

[steviebabe]

I wonder whether playing transfers in 4 suits would get you there, depending on your agreements. We show a positive (at least Q to 3) by completing the transfer, so there is no point in transfering to clubs, but, if you transfer to diamonds, I think you are in a win-win situation. When partner can provide the positive 3D response, you bid your heart shortage, showing interest in slam. With no interest, partner can sign off in 3NT. If partner bids the negative 3C, you still bid 3H, now interest in a club slam, giving partner the same options.

[Cyberyeti]

 igt3, on 2020-February-01, 10:56, said:

We use 2♠ asking for the minors. Opener bids 2NT with same length or longer diamonds and 3♣ with longer clubs. After opener´s rebid responder passes or bids 3m with a one suited weak hand.
With both minors, like yours, he bids 3♥ or 3♠ showing shortness. (3NT shows slam interest with a long clubs and 4♣ with long diamonds.)
After 3M opener can bid 3NT with no slam interest in a minor or setting trump with 4♣ or 4♦.
This works more often than not.

We play 2♠ (opposite a weak NT) as weak with one minor or GF with both at least 5-4, opener bids 3♣ with 4+♦, 3♦ with 5+♣ otherwise 2N. We show the longer minor rather than shortage with the good hands, bidding 3N over 2N with this hand to show 5-5 (NF but highly invitational).

[pigpenz]

I like using mss 2♠
if partner denies 4 card minor you can show singleton now

or you can play system where you bid shortness over 1nt immediately implying 55minors with singleton in suit you bid at the 3 level

[miamijd]

2S range finder or clubs; 2NT diamonds; and 3C puppet is pretty common. If that's what you play, you have to give up the 5/5 minor invite hand. Not much of a sacrifice. I played that for quite awhile before I switched to 3C puppet, and I think it came up once in about 10 years. Just not worth wasting a bid for.

So 3D GF minors ought to fit the bill given the rest of your system.

Cheers,
Mike