[LBengtsson]

not an easy hand to bid as other players have said, but I do not like fake reverses as partner is given the wrong impression of the shape of your hand. having made that statement this hand should be boss in the auction after responders 1♠ bid.

so you make a fake reverse (2♦/2♥), partner raises and then you bid partners first suit ♠s and partner has to assume automatically that is now what you want as the trump suit. thats garbage and you all know it! you probably should be able to cope with the rest of the auction as ♠ is higher than ♦/♥. but if rkcb is used later its possible that you may be giving inaccurate responses as neither of you are agreed what has been agreed as trump.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2021-May-15, 18:57, said:

We are not bidding 3nt as any kind of offer to play there, but as in David's suggestion, a gambling 3nt hand with too much in outside values.
It's forward going, slam interest in clubs.

I did consider a 2♥ "reverse" but "And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly". reversing into a 2 card suit is such a distortion but perhaps the only bid we have.

Sorry, jb, but bidding 3N is almost always an offer to play. It is not, in any way, a forcing club rebid....it is not at all forcing.

In my experience, playing a jump to 3N after 1m 1M, for in excess of 30 years, I’d say it’s passed at least 80% of the time.

[mikeh]

LBengtsson, on 2021-May-15, 23:37, said:

not an easy hand to bid as other players have said, but I do not like fake reverses as partner is given the wrong impression of the shape of your hand. having made that statement this hand should be boss in the auction after responders 1♠ bid.

so you make a fake reverse (2♦/2♥), partner raises and then you bid partners first suit ♠s and partner has to assume automatically that is now what you want as the trump suit. thats garbage and you all know it! you probably should be able to cope with the rest of the auction as ♠ is higher than ♦/♥. but if rkcb is used later its possible that you may be giving inaccurate responses as neither of you are agreed what has been agreed as trump.

If I reverse into 2H and get raised, we have at least a 5-3 spade fit and my 3S bid tells that loud and clear.

If partner cuebids, I can keycard and, believe me, will know what to bid. If partner ever keycards, then if he announces we have them all, once again I know what to do.

And both of us know spades are trump. I can’t imagine any competent player feeling any confusion at all. While having only 2 hearts is very unusual, having 3 is fairly normal with a 3=3=1=6 too strong for a 3C rebid. So when I bid 3S over the feared 3H, no player beyond a novice should be confused.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2021-May-15, 23:58, said:

If I reverse into 2H and get raised, we have at least a 5-3 spade fit and my 3S bid tells that loud and clear.

If partner cuebids, I can keycard and, believe me, will know what to bid. If partner ever keycards, then if he announces we have them all, once again I know what to do.

And both of us know spades are trump. I can’t imagine any competent player feeling any confusion at all. While having only 2 hearts is very unusual, having 3 is fairly normal with a 3=3=1=6 too strong for a 3C rebid. So when I bid 3S over the feared 3H, no player beyond a novice should be confused.

The problem auction is that you could be facing 1♣-1♠-2♥-4♥ and now for us 4♠ is kickback (what else does partner bid with Kxxxx, Jxxxx, Qx, x).

We are fortunate to have the artificial 2N rebid, but without it I wonder if 3♦ is better than 2♥ ? a 4-3 spade fit might well not be too bad if partner's suit is decent and we may be able to bail back into the club slam if partner shows ♠KQ and an ace or ♠K no Q and the ♥A.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2021-May-15, 23:52, said:

Sorry, jb, but bidding 3N is almost always an offer to play. It is not, in any way, a forcing club rebid....it is not at all forcing.

In my experience, playing a jump to 3N after 1m 1M, for in excess of 30 years, I’d say it’s passed at least 80% of the time.

I agree, it IS an offer to play there , but would it be better to reserve the jump to 3nt for these gambling+ hands?
A hand that would bid 3nt over a l level response from partner can use a reverse to force game, it's going to be less of a distortion and it permits you to show this type of hand with the 3nt rebid.

[nullve]

mikeh, on 2021-May-15, 23:58, said:

If I reverse into 2H and get raised, we have at least a 5-3 spade fit and my 3S bid tells that loud and clear.

If partner cuebids, I can keycard and, believe me, will know what to bid. If partner ever keycards, then if he announces we have them all, once again I know what to do.

And both of us know spades are trump. I can’t imagine any competent player feeling any confusion at all. While having only 2 hearts is very unusual, having 3 is fairly normal with a 3=3=1=6 too strong for a 3C rebid. So when I bid 3S over the feared 3H, no player beyond a novice should be confused.

Let me first say that I really like the idea that

1♣-1♠
2♥-3♥
3♠

cancels hearts as trumps. But I doubt that is equally obvious everywhere in the world.

In Norwegian 2/1, the strong 2♣ opening is not actually borrowed from American 2/1, but has evolved from an opening called Halle's 2♣ that originally showed something like 19-21 hcp with any shape OR a Culbertson 2♣ opening. (The 2♦, 2♥ and 2♠ openings were the same as in Culbertson.) Today it is almost indistinguishable from its American counterpart but even very strong players still use it on Acol Two-strength one-suiters to solve rebid problems. I believe this is true of Brogeland-Lindqvist, for instance, so I'd be (mildly) shocked if they had this auction (or the T-Walsh equivalent) and 3♠ were not intended as a cuebid with hearts as trumps.

[fromageGB]

Minimal 2♣ open. If partner has a trick I am happy to go at least 5♣, if not I can subside in 3♣. I would certainly not be happy with a NT rebid after a 1-open!

[LBengtsson]

Cyberyeti says: The problem auction is that you could be facing 1♣-1♠-2♥-4♥ and now for us 4♠ is kickback (what else does partner bid with Kxxxx, Jxxxx, Qx, x).

We are fortunate to have the artificial 2N rebid, but without it I wonder if 3♦ is better than 2♥ ? a 4-3 spade fit might well not be too bad if partner's suit is decent and we may be able to bail back into the club slam if partner shows ♠KQ and an ace or ♠K no Q and the ♥A.

Nullve says: Let me first say that I really like the idea that

1♣-1♠
2♥-3♥
3♠

cancels hearts as trumps. But I doubt that is equally obvious everywhere in the world.

In Norwegian 2/1, the strong 2♣ opening is not actually borrowed from American 2/1, but has evolved from an opening called Halle's 2♣ that originally showed something like 19-21 hcp with any shape OR a Culbertson 2♣ opening. (The 2♦, 2♥ and 2♠ openings were the same as in Culbertson.) Today it is almost indistinguishable from its American counterpart but even very strong players still use it on Acol Two-strength one-suiters to solve rebid problems. I believe this is true of Brogeland-Lindqvist, for instance, so I'd be (mildly) shocked if they had this auction (or the T-Walsh equivalent) and 3♠ were not intended as a cuebid with hearts as trumps.

Lars says: this is why I feel a fake reverse can go wrong. on nullve's auction, it is not obvious except if you have a specific agreement with partner, that 3♠ is preferred 3 card support and cancels ♥ as trump. (I had not thought of cyberyeti's kickback auction but valid also)

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2021-May-16, 03:02, said:

I agree, it IS an offer to play there , but would it be better to reserve the jump to 3nt for these gambling+ hands?
A hand that would bid 3nt over a l level response from partner can use a reverse to force game, it's going to be less of a distortion and it permits you to show this type of hand with the 3nt rebid.

Why do you want to offer to play in 3N with A109 in partner’s spade suit, AKQJxxx in your club suit and a stiff diamond?

I simply don’t understand the logic even if it were possible that partner may have bypassed a diamond suit to bid 1S, as is common for many (but by no means all) 2/1 players. You said earlier that partner won’t do that.

That has 2 implications. One is that partner will have 5+ spades much of the time. The other is that, when he has only 4 spades, the opponents hold a lot of diamonds. Both implications make 3N a huge gamble, likely an unnecessary one.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2021-May-16, 08:59, said:

Why do you want to offer to play in 3N with A109 in partner’s spade suit, AKQJxxx in your club suit and a stiff diamond?

I simply don’t understand the logic even if it were possible that partner may have bypassed a diamond suit to bid 1S, as is common for many (but by no means all) 2/1 players. You said earlier that partner won’t do that.

That has 2 implications. One is that partner will have 5+ spades much of the time. The other is that, when he has only 4 spades, the opponents hold a lot of diamonds. Both implications make 3N a huge gamble, likely an unnecessary one.

Mike, I agree that how I, and most others would play, 1m 1M 3nt is an offer to play in 3nt and I do not want to offer to play in 3nt with this hand.

I am discussing 3nt here being used to show this gambling+ hand, as in David's post, and a hand that would bid 3nt after 1m 1M could go via a reverse, it will be less of a distortion.

DavidKok, on 2021-May-15, 04:43, said:

I have all kinds of widgets and gadgets over 1♣, but in a natural system I think 1X-1Y-3NT should 'always' show a solid 7-card suit with too much outside values for Gambling NT, if you play that. This hand is about a king too strong for that, but it might be the least of all evils.

[jillybean]

---

Here is the full hand, I am not sure how the bidding continued after 4nt but the auction ended in 5nt.
4♣, even if it is Gerber, is obviously a better route than 3nt.

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2021-May-16, 10:47, said:

---

Here is the full hand, I am not sure how the bidding continued after 4nt but the auction ended in 5nt.
4♣, even if it is Gerber, is obviously a better route than 3nt.

Do you have stiff K or stiff 10 of diamonds ? the OP has one, the full hand has the other

[nullve]

North's hand has changed from

AT9
KQ
T
AKQJ876

to

AJ9
KQ
K
AKQJ876

.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-May-16, 02:57, said:

The problem auction is that you could be facing 1♣-1♠-2♥-4♥ and now for us 4♠ is kickback (what else does partner bid with Kxxxx, Jxxxx, Qx, x).

We are fortunate to have the artificial 2N rebid, but without it I wonder if 3♦ is better than 2♥ ? a 4-3 spade fit might well not be too bad if partner's suit is decent and we may be able to bail back into the club slam if partner shows ♠KQ and an ace or ♠K no Q and the ♥A.

If one plays in a partnership wherein ‘fake’ reverses are an acceptable means of bidding strong, otherwise unbiddable (within the system parameters) hands, then either a jump to 4H is disallowed (my preference) or 4S is excluded from kickback.

In the second case, I’d be ok with that. Whatever 4H means, it should deny slam interest opposite a reverse. There’s no need to jump anyway.

Playing lebensohl or ingberman (which operate identically in this auction) responder can show a weak hand with 4+ heart support by bidding 2N then 3H and all gf heart raises bid 3H directly.

One could also show the weak 5-5 via 2N then 4H.

Plus, finally, if one plays Meckwell jumpshifts in response to 1C, wherein a bid of 2H in reply to 1C shows 5+ spades, 4+ hearts and a weak hand, the pressure is off with weak responding hands anyway. As it happens, I play another form of Meckwell, in which we use 2D, by responder, to show that hand, but that doesn’t change the point, which is that one ought not to fear dealing with a 4H raise of one’s 2H reverse.

Note how having system agreements, such as permitting fake reverses and/or using lebensohl/ingberman, influences how one sees superficially unrelated auctions proceeding. If one didn’t have lebensohl/ ingberman and also didn’t play Meckwell, then one might need 4H over 2H to show a very different raise than would be shown by 3H. Maybe 4H should be a weak 5-5 hand, as Cyber suggests. However, my strong preference would be for going through lebensohl/ingberman and any serious partnership should employ these or similar gadgets over reverses.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2021-May-16, 10:47, said:

---

Here is the full hand, I am not sure how the bidding continued after 4nt but the auction ended in 5nt.
4♣, even if it is Gerber, is obviously a better route than 3nt.

Even I open 2C with that new hand. And surely nobody opens 1C then rebids 3C with 23 hcp, unless playing a forcing club method?

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-May-16, 12:02, said:

Do you have stiff K or stiff 10 of diamonds ? the OP has one, the full hand has the other

Sorry ♦K is in East's hand - North holds ♦10

[jillybean]

nullve, on 2021-May-16, 12:28, said:

North's hand has changed from

AT9
KQ
T
AKQJ876

to

AJ9
KQ
K
AKQJ876

.

Yep, I messed up, posting the hand at 5am. Fixed

[jillybean]

---

[smerriman]

jillybean, on 2021-May-16, 10:18, said:

Mike, I agree that how I, and most others would play, 1m 1M 3nt is an offer to play in 3nt and I do not want to offer to play in 3nt with this hand.

I am discussing 3nt here being used to show this gambling+ hand, as in David's post...

I'm confused. The standard definition of 3NT is a hand with a long running minor - it certainly can't be showing a balanced hand, since you would use a normal 1NT/2NT bid/rebid sequence. If you and "most others" don't play it as this, what do you play it as?

[Cyberyeti]

OK, we'd actually have a completely different auction starting 1♣-2♣ leading to an issue where N can't tell whether S has Kxxx, Axx, Ax, xxxx which is 13 tricks or what he actually has so will settle for 6N.