[Cyberyeti]

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You hold this hand playing basic 2/1 (I don't play 2/1 so am trying to work out how it works)

Questions:

Do you open it in 1st seat ?
If you pass in first seat, and partner opens 1♠ what do you respond ? 1N ? presumably 2♣ is drury of some sort
If partner opens 1♠ in 1st seat what do you respond ?

[mikeh]

Whether you open or not has little, if anything, to do with 2/1.

Personally, I pass but I suspect my most frequent partner would open. Indeed, I think it to be very close, and were my clubs K109xxx I’d probably open.

Btw, I play transfer responses to 1C but that also has nothing to do with whether one plays 2/1.

If one passes and partner opens 1S, then one bids 1N if one is playing any form of drury but….once again, that has nothing to do with 2/1. I played drury before I played 2/1 and indeed drury long pre-dates 2/1.

A 2/1 response by a passed hand cannot logically be played as game force….so 2/1 as a principle applies only to first and second seat opening bids.

As for what constitutes a 2/1 response to a first or second seat 1D/H/S opening bid….that depends on opening bid style. In my partnerships we open almost all 11 counts and (more in one than the other) many 10 counts with a decent 5 card major. As a result we require a strong hand to bid 2/1….at least a good 13 count. For example, if I held this in third seat and partner opened 1S, I’d have an automatic 1N response…2C would be a huge overbid.

Were partner to open 1H, then I have a gf hand…I’d be torn between splintering or bidding 2C and then supporting hearts.

As has been said here on BBF many times, there is no such thing as ‘the 2/1 system’. There have been books written promoting various ‘2/1’ methods but they describe different methods, united only by the concept that a 2/1 response to 1M opened in 1st or 2nd seat creates a game force. Note that historically many 2/1 players felt that 1D 2C was a special case, allowing a 3C rebid by responder to be non-forcing. Others, including in my partnerships, always treated 1D 2C as gf.

Some use 1M 1N, by an unpassed hand, as semi-forcing (these days usually making a 2C response either balanced, gf, natural, gf, or a three card limit raise). Most still use 1N by an unpassed hand as a one round force.

The forcing 1N is a theoretical weakness for 2/1. Not only does it prevent playing in 1N but the wide range of strength held can cause problems in defining responder’s strength. However, most expert pairs use devices such as Bart….1M 1N 2C can be 2+ (2R promises 4+). I play two way bart, where 2D by responder shows 5+ hearts after 1S 1N 2C, and 1S 1N 2C 2H puppets to 2S.

The key is what later actions show.

In essence, the decision to play 2/1 is nothing more than the decision to build a system based on the concept that a non jump 2/1 new suit response to 1D/H/S opening in first or second requires game going strength…a concept which itself depends on opening bid style rather than any non-existent notion of what ‘2/1’ requires…2/1 has NO requirements because it’s not a system…it’s an idea around which one builds one’s system or adopts a style developed by others.

2/1 is primarily an imp style approach. It is extraordinarily good for bidding slams since the gf nature of the 2/1 response takes a huge strain off of both partners. It’s been a very long time since I played standard or (and this was for a short time) a form of Acol, but I still remember the space consuming contortions one had to go through on the second round of bidding when sequences such as 1S 2D 2S were non forcing.

There’s a lot of reasons why, at the upper levels of the game, the vast majority of pairs play either a form of strong 1C (I include Polish and Swedish etc methods since even though one club doesn’t promise strength, it’s forcing) or 2/1….and a lot of strong club players incorporate 2/1 into their responses to 1M (note again that since the 2/1 idea is a concept rather than a system there is nothing odd about strong club bidders using 2/1 gf responses to 1D/H/S).

If you’re interested in 2/1 I gather Lawrence’s book is a good introduction (I haven’t read it but in my partnerships we have our own methods…in the one case with notes and agreements far longer than any book). Just keep in mind that you’d be reading one particular idea of what a 2/1 method can look like rather than learning ‘the 2/1 system’.

[Cyberyeti]

OK, The hand opposite it was ♠Qxxxx and the other suits ♥ Kxx (AQJx, A) what is the rebid over the forcing/semiforcing 1N and does it matter what the order of the minor suits is ? do you take the same approach ? I'm assuming no gadget like gazilli is being played.

[fromageGB]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-August-27, 09:19, said:

OK, The hand opposite it was ♠Qxxxx and the other suits ♥ Kxx (AQJx, A) what is the rebid over the forcing/semiforcing 1N and does it matter what the order of the minor suits is ? do you take the same approach ? I'm assuming no gadget like gazilli is being played.

I would miss Gazzilli, and without, this hand is awkward. I don't really want to force to the 3-level, if there is no fit opposite a weak hand, so 3♦ may be a step too far, but having this strength I cannot pass the non-forcing NT. (Similarly 3♣ with minors reversed.) I rebid 2♦(♣) in the hope partner can bid something invitational. My plan is to pass a return to 2♠ but after 2♥ I raise. (With clubs, I rebid 2NT over 2♦.)

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-August-27, 09:19, said:

OK, The hand opposite it was ♠Qxxxx and the other suits ♥ Kxx (AQJx, A) what is the rebid over the forcing/semiforcing 1N and does it matter what the order of the minor suits is ? do you take the same approach ? I'm assuming no gadget like gazilli is being played.

So Qxxxx Kxx AQJx A?

Assuming the opps pass throughout

Assume the strong hand is dealer

1S 1N 2D, promising 4+. Note that the 2D showing 4+ is not part of 2/1 but is not uncommon. Many others play it as 3+

As responder, the hand is far from clear. I think the choices are 3C, an underbid and the clubs are a bit thin, or 2N, a slight overbid but giving full weight to the hearts. I can’t be objective since I know the hands. Once again, ‘system’ isn’t the deciding factor…style and judgement are.

[mw64ahw]

I would open this hand in first seat, where others would not.
Given I don't have a Weak 2 in ♣ I use 2♦/♥ as a Drury variation so can bid 2♣ opposite a third seat opening.
This is not a 2/1 GF so 1NT opposite a 1st/2nd seat opener. I play GI the majority of the time so in this case I'm OK to bid 2♣

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2022-August-27, 09:48, said:

So Qxxxx Kxx AQJx A?

Assuming the opps pass throughout

Assume the strong hand is dealer

1S 1N 2D, promising 4+. Note that the 2D showing 4+ is not part of 2/1 but is not uncommon. Many others play it as 3+

As responder, the hand is far from clear. I think the choices are 3C, an underbid and the clubs are a bit thin, or 2N, a slight overbid but giving full weight to the hearts. I can’t be objective since I know the hands. Once again, ‘system’ isn’t the deciding factor…style and judgement are.

This is the sort of reason I thought it was interesting looking at the options.

In fact the hand was the other one with 4 clubs and one diamond. I wasn't sure if the rebid over 1N was going to be at the 2 or 3 level, and where it would go from there.

Playing what I play, we'd open the hand 1♣ and would have no difficulty bidding 6♣

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-August-27, 11:17, said:

This is the sort of reason I thought it was interesting looking at the options.

In fact the hand was the other one with 4 clubs and one diamond. I wasn't sure if the rebid over 1N was going to be at the 2 or 3 level, and where it would go from there.

Playing what I play, we'd open the hand 1♣ and would have no difficulty bidding 6♣

Qxxxx Kxx A AQJx. Opposite x AQJx xx K98xxx

1S. 1N
2C

Now my approach depends upon which partner I am playing with. In one, going through 2D before raising clubs shows a weak (but still constructive) raise while in the other the weaker raise raises immediately

Playing in the former:

1S 1N 2C 3C. Shows 10-12 hcp and 5+ clubs and at most 2 spades

1S 1N 2C 3C

It’s not clear how the bidding would continue but opener has a wonderful hand in context. Over 3D, ostensibly a probe for 3N, responder bids 3N in all likelihood….picture opener with Kxxxx xx KQx AQx to see why.

But opener isn’t done yet…he can bid 4H, transforming the 3D bid into a cue.

Responder will now drive to slam

Had opener chosen 3H instead of 3D, responder can’t bid spades or notrump so should imo bid 4H. That in turn will get opener excited since responder will rarely have more than one spade…with two spades and no diamond values (no 3N) responder would bid 3S over 3H with most hands with two spades…

[DavidKok]

This reminds me of that joke in Roy Hughes' book, where he deals ♠4, ♥7, ♦T742, ♣AKQ7432 and decides it's not a preempt and not an opening, watches partner open 1♠ in third seat and now has to choose between 2♣ Drury, 3♣ Bergen, 4♣ Gerber or 5♣ to play (or would this be Exclusion?).

The most straightforward approach with your hand is to not play Drury. Quite a few 2/1 players have also adopted intermediate jump shifts, but the heart concentration make this hand not suitable for a 3♣ response to 1♠. That's a seam in the system - not strong enough to open, too strong to comfortably bid 1NT, not concentrated enough for an intermediate jump shift. Every system has awkward hands like that. The standard answer is to just bid 2♣ over 1♠, and discuss what to do with hands like this before you include Drury in your toolkit. Note that 2/1 is off opposite a passed hand, so 1NT is not forcing and 2♣ is ~10-11.

Put differently, just make whatever bid you would make in a standard system. The continuations are the same, since 2/1 is off.

[mikeh]

DavidKok, on 2022-August-27, 19:02, said:

This reminds me of that joke in Roy Hughes' book, where he deals ♠4, ♥7, ♦T742, ♣AKQ7432 and decides it's not a preempt and not an opening, watches partner open 1♠ in third seat and now has to choose between 2♣ Drury, 3♣ Bergen, 4♣ Gerber or 5♣ to play (or would this be Exclusion?).

The most straightforward approach with your hand is to not play Drury. Quite a few 2/1 players have also adopted intermediate jump shifts, but the heart concentration make this hand not suitable for a 3♣ response to 1♠. That's a seam in the system - not strong enough to open, too strong to comfortably bid 1NT, not concentrated enough for an intermediate jump shift. Every system has awkward hands like that. The standard answer is to just bid 2♣ over 1♠, and discuss what to do with hands like this before you include Drury in your toolkit. Note that 2/1 is off opposite a passed hand, so 1NT is not forcing and 2♣ is ~10-11.

Put differently, just make whatever bid you would make in a standard system. The continuations are the same, since 2/1 is off.

There is, imo, no need for a natural 2N invite over a third or fourth seat 1M….even though 1M in court seat is usually sounder than it might be in third. If you can make game with your 11 count (assuming you pass most 11 counts) either partner could/should have opened 1N or he will take a call over your 1N. Admittedly this is based on the concept that 1N by a passed hand is ‘semi-forcing’. Personally, I play 14-16 1N so don’t need to worry…at most we have a limited fit 13 opposite a horrible 11.

All of this means that you can play 2N as a minor hand. One treatment I like is that 2N shows a near opening bid with 6+ clubs….if you play a weak 2D opening bid you rarely need to include diamonds in the 2N bid. However, I usually play that both 2C and 2D are artificial raises of 1M, so I can have 2N show an invite in one minor, unspecified. Opener bids 3C if he’d pass a natural 3C, 3D if he’d move over clubs but pass 3D, and any other call is natural. It’s not perfect but all bidding methods are compromises of one kind or another and this one works ok.

This has the, imo, huge advantage of preserving drury and of allowing for fit jumps…

An addendum is to play 1M 3C (by a passed hand) as a near opener with at least 5-5 minors…opener passes, corrects to diamonds or makes another natural call. You show the fit jump in clubs by jumping to 3M….there’s no sense playing that as weak or mixed given that both opps have passed at least once. However, the 3C bid, showing both minors, is dangerous since you may have no 8 card fit and the defence is usually easy. 2N, otoh, at least usually gets you to no worse than a 6-1 fit, and that’s on a fairly bad day.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2022-August-27, 20:05, said:

There is, imo, no need for a natural 2N invite over a third or fourth seat 1M….even though 1M in court seat is usually sounder than it might be in third. If you can make game with your 11 count (assuming you pass most 11 counts) either partner could/should have opened 1N or he will take a call over your 1N. Admittedly this is based on the concept that 1N by a passed hand is ‘semi-forcing’. Personally, I play 14-16 1N so don’t need to worry…at most we have a limited fit 13 opposite a horrible 11.

we play 2N as limit+ raise by a non passed hand which just becomes a normal limit raise by a passed hand, 3any as a fit jump, 3♠ as a weaker raise.

[DavidKok]

The games where we bid P-(P)-1M-(P); 2NT* (limit raise) - (P) - 3M -a.p. tend to score just below average, it is frequently right to compete when they take out your 2M and both sides have ~10 points. That being said, Drury is better when it comes up than 2NT limit raise, but I like NF 10-11 2♣ too much. It is very conveniently descriptive.

[thepossum]

How can I not keep an eye on this thread. Particularly interesting to find that many of the problems I have are not 2/1 per se. However it does seem to introduce its own range of unnatural contortions Admmittedly I am experiencing it through a GiB 2/1 lens. But I struggle often and make what I find is a perfectly reasonable forcing bid, or an attempt to show a second suit and find myself in a slam in the wrong suit occasionally. Most recent example I carelessly tried a jump shift into a second 4 card major, after opening with a minor, responder bidding a major at the 1 level only to find it was taken as a splinter etc. Bids keep changing their meanings. Finding it difficult to explore two possible suit fits is an issue for me, and knowing how to force without ending prematurely in unmakeable slams

Another issue I have is finding myself and partner at dizzying heights without having a clue how many points we each have

What are these strong club systems I keep hearing about?

[pescetom]

thepossum, on 2022-September-01, 18:12, said:

But I struggle often and make what I find is a perfectly reasonable forcing bid, or an attempt to show a second suit and find myself in a slam in the wrong suit occasionally. Most recent example I carelessly tried a jump shift into a second 4 card major, after opening with a minor, responder bidding a major at the 1 level only to find it was taken as a splinter etc. Bids keep changing their meanings. Finding it difficult to explore two possible suit fits is an issue for me, and knowing how to force without ending prematurely in unmakeable slams

Another issue I have is finding myself and partner at dizzying heights without having a clue how many points we each

Simply bidding a major after a minor gives responder a clear signal about how many points you have, in any natural system. What did you hope a jump beyond reverse showed, if not some huge hand or something artificial like splinter fit?

[thepossum]

Duplicate deleted

[thepossum]

Deleted because I can't be bothered engaging

It's curious that the creepiness in the scripts or somewhere is back

But there is no need for some of you to inflate your fragile egos through misrepresenting what I said. I guess you have followers to impress. Students perhaps 😊

And it's the unpleasant way some of you do it suggesting unpleasant cultures

There is a lot of rubbish posted all over the world and i could spend my life unpleasantly having a go at all those people

Sorry if I respond oversensitively sometimes but when you are facing gaslighting every little thing can cause upset and trouble in your life. Maybe everyone knows what I am dealing with now. The kind of people I am dealing with