[jillybean]

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12-14NT

[sfi]

Partner will be expecting something very close to this hand if I pass now, won't they?

[thepossum]

Possibly 3H - what is the range for responders 2H

My understanding is that it is weak/non-forcing and maybe length in hearts - but maybe like sfi says pass and see what responder says

[AL78]

You have bid your hand, pass and let partner decide. Are you playing 4 or 5 card majors? If the latter, does partner always show a spade suit before supporting with three hearts?

[DavidKok]

With a title thread like this how can I not fall for it?

I think the basics are:

• We've shown our hand (15-17 balanced with 5♥). Partner is in a much better position to judge what to do, so we should pass.
  
• Support with support. The auction up to this point should be highly descriptive - partner voluntarily running from 1NT means they should hold 3 hearts, and failing to support immediately shows either a slam interest hand (which is denied by 2♥) or a good 6-card suit or longer in spades (in which case partner would have rebid spades). In short, the auction thus far does not exist.

I would still pass, but have no faith that partner will make the right decision on this start.

[apollo1201]

 DavidKok, on 2023-February-04, 02:45, said:

In short, the auction thus far does not exist.

On the contrary, I think it exists, but we lack info from the OP…

The rest is my interpertation.

I tend to take the fact that partner voluntarily hid support to bid S is to fake a preference should we rebid 2m over 1S.

With a hand that doesn’t want us to go to 3M if opps compete, or look for game over a more forward going 2H and fail at the 3 level with our « elegant » 15 HCP 5431 hand.

Something like Kxxx xxx Qx xxxx or QJxx xxx Kxx xxx (or a worse quacky flattish hand), a bare minimum 6 « support » points.

That is sometimes playing a dangerous game. But avoids getting overflow.

Then we have an easy pass. Maybe knowing our 15-17 range will décide partner if they like their meager collection, but we’ve said it all already

[DavidKok]

I would raise with those hands (support with support! It's not that difficult, I promise). But if you decide to take the slower route surely you'd pass 1NT, right? A quackish balanced hand that wasn't willing to support the same time shouldn't prefer 2♥ to 1NT. The key word in your explanation is fake a preference. Bidding 2♥ over 1NT shows actual preference, and weak hands that actually want to play in hearts should bid hearts the first time.

Apparently it is partnership agreement to show spades rather than support even with weak somewhat shapely hands. I hope partner will know what to do next, we've given a perfect description of our hand.

[Cyberyeti]

 jillybean, on 2023-February-03, 21:23, said:

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12-14NT

5 card heart ?

What were you doing if opps were silent ?

What do I have that partner doesn't know about ? my third spade, for us 3♣ would show an extra heart, 3♦ a third spade

Does partner respond 1♠ or 2♥ with a 43(42) if 2♥ he has a 5th spade and we have a double fit.

[LBengtsson]

Your right, jillybean, this is a hand where you 'Pass' knowing/hoping that partner reads you to be a 5332 shape with a 15-16(17) count. If you were not that point count and shape you would have bid a minor suit, raised ♠s or rebid your ♥s. You have been allowed two bids to limit your shape and point count very precisely. It is up to partner to take further action over the opps. late interference.

This is one good example imo for the fight for the part score in low level contracts. With this hand it is an easy pass imo. If you were stronger, say 17 HCPs I would guess a X would show extra values here.

When you have nothing further to say on a hand, 'Pass' is the basic common sense bid that indicates that you have already stated your values and are minimum.

[nullve]

 jillybean, on 2023-February-03, 21:23, said:

12-14NT

Acol or 5cM?

[AL78]

 DavidKok, on 2023-February-04, 02:45, said:

With a title thread like this how can I not fall for it?

I think the basics are:

• We've shown our hand (15-17 balanced with 5♥). Partner is in a much better position to judge what to do, so we should pass.
  
• Support with support. The auction up to this point should be highly descriptive - partner voluntarily running from 1NT means they should hold 3 hearts, and failing to support immediately shows either a slam interest hand (which is denied by 2♥) or a good 6-card suit or longer in spades (in which case partner would have rebid spades). In short, the auction thus far does not exist.

I would still pass, but have no faith that partner will make the right decision on this start.

I can see it existing in a 4CM system like Acol where responder might be weak with 5341 shape or similar and they decided playing in the Moysian would be better than leaving 1NT on account of their ruffing potential.

[nullve]

 AL78, on 2023-February-04, 07:40, said:

I can see it existing in a 4CM system like Acol where responder might be weak with 5341 shape or similar and they decided playing in the Moysian would be better than leaving 1NT on account of their ruffing potential.

In Acol it would make sense to bid 2♥ even with 53(32), allowing Opener to pass with 5H(332), especially 2533, and correct to 2♠ otherwise.

[nullve]

 DavidKok, on 2023-February-04, 02:45, said:

With a title thread like this how can I not fall for it?

I think the basics are:

• We've shown our hand (15-17 balanced with 5♥). Partner is in a much better position to judge what to do, so we should pass.
  
• Support with support. The auction up to this point should be highly descriptive - partner voluntarily running from 1NT means they should hold 3 hearts, and failing to support immediately shows either a slam interest hand (which is denied by 2♥) or a good 6-card suit or longer in spades (in which case partner would have rebid spades). In short, the auction thus far does not exist.

I would still pass, but have no faith that partner will make the right decision on this start.

In the Kokish-Kraft system, a 5c M system with 12-14 NT,

1♥-1♠; 1N-2♥ = "Non-constructive (spades worth mentioning, perhaps to avoid finishing in 1NT)"

.

[jillybean]

Does this change your bid?

Not acol
5 card majors, 12-14 NT
1m 1x 1nt shows 15-17
1♥ : 1♠ 1nt 12-14, we don't open 1nt with 5 hearts

[mikeh]

 jillybean, on 2023-February-04, 11:23, said:

Does this change your bid?

Not acol
5 card majors, 12-14 NT
1m 1x 1nt shows 15-17
1♥ : 1♠ 1nt 12-14, we don't open 1nt with 5 hearts

But your auction shows that, whatever your stated methods, the sequence 1H 1S 1N doesn’t show or at least doesn’t have 12-14.

Btw, it is, imo, silly to play that you don’t open 1N with a 5 card heart suit.

You now either lie about your hand via rebidding 1N with a good 15, when partner will assume you have 13 plus/minus 1, and thus np is a lot of games and a few slams or you have to open 1H and rebid a three card minor, missing an easy notrump contract.

I’ve seen some rational arguments about not opening 1N with spades. I don’t agree with them but they are fairly logical. I’ve never seen anything remotely persuasive about not doing it with hearts.

Btw, was this the companion hand to responder having Qxxxx 10xx Qxx Qx?

If so, then I feel smug. The auction you had made it easy for west to balance. I suspect it would be far harder for him, a passed hand, to come in over 1H 2H, with opener being unlimited.

[DavidKok]

 nullve, on 2023-February-04, 08:15, said:

In the Kokish-Kraft system, a 5c M system with 12-14 NT,

1♥-1♠; 1N-2♥ = "Non-constructive (spades worth mentioning, perhaps to avoid finishing in 1NT)"

.

I didn't spot this in the pdf, but also did not give it a proper read. Where do they explain how to show support after 1♥-(P)-1♠-(3♣); ?

[AL78]

 jillybean, on 2023-February-04, 11:23, said:

Does this change your bid?

Not acol
5 card majors, 12-14 NT
1m 1x 1nt shows 15-17
1♥ : 1♠ 1nt 12-14, we don't open 1nt with 5 hearts

I'm a bit lost with your system here.

If 1♥ - 1♠: 1NT shows 12-14 because you must open 1♥ with a balanced 12-14 and five hearts, how do you bid with the same shape and 15-17 HCP, and 18-19 HCP?

If you really can't stand opening 1NT 12-14 with a five card heart suit, have you considered Crowhurst where 1♥ - 1♠: 1NT shows 12-16 and 2♣ by responder is artificial and asks for more information on major suit holdings and strength?

[jillybean]

When I wanted to play a 12-14NT, partner was not comfortable opening 1NT with a 5 card major so we play 1♥:1♠ 1NT as 12-14
With 15-17 we would rebid 3♥, with 18-19 2NT Ill conceived and unplayable perhaps, we hobble along without too many mishaps and I get to play the 12-14NT
I'm at a point where I would be comfortable opening 12-14NT on any shape, singletons and voids included.

[nullve]

 DavidKok, on 2023-February-04, 12:11, said:

I didn't spot this in the pdf, but also did not give it a proper read. Where do they explain how to show support after 1♥-(P)-1♠-(3♣); ?

I don't know, but I also don't know why you think this has to be a problem sequence if you play constructive raises.

[jillybean]

 mikeh, on 2023-February-04, 11:37, said:

Btw, was this the companion hand to responder having Qxxxx 10xx Qxx Qx?

If so, then I feel smug. The auction you had made it easy for west to balance. I suspect it would be far harder for him, a passed hand, to come in over 1H 2H, with opener being unlimited.

Justifiably smug.

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