[jillybean]

---

[mikeh]

Misread so posted and deleted an irrelevant post.

Tough hand. If I had to bet, I’d expect to make 6H much of the time. x AQxx AKQxxx Ax is a borderline 2C because the sequence 2C 2D 3D is a theoretical quagmire. I do think it’s worth 2C but I’d be unhappy. Any 5-6 hand almost has to have play, since nobody stretches to open such hands 2C.

Fortunately I don’t have to guess. I bid 5H

Btw, how many people have an agreement about whether 4H is forcing?

Responder will often have to retreat to 5D with shortish diamonds and bad hand. KJxxx xx Jx xxxx opposite that example I gave above. So this sequence, even if not forcing, shows a huge playing hand.

If 4H is forcing, 5H will possibly end the auction when slam is cold. If 4H was not forcing, 5H seems ideal…some interest but not a big hand. If partner bids it with the weak trump,I know he has, then I’m optimistic.

[DavidKok]

I think ♠x, ♥AQxx, ♦AKQxxx, ♣Ax is a clear 1-level opening. With only 19 HCP and shortage in spades the chance that it gets passed out is minimal - people love bidding spades. The hand has plenty of trick-taking potential, but I have comfortable rebids over anything partner might do, and will also be well-placed in competition after 1♦.

For me 4♥ is not forcing and shows a monster with long diamonds and 4(+) hearts. I agree slam might be good and like the 5♥ bid, though I'm tempted by 6♥. Partner shouldn't be bidding on shape with a long minor and spade shortage, so it is (nearly?) impossible that partner is lacking control in a black suit. Big HCP 2=4=5=2 hands should probably be shown as balanced, or at least rebid 3NT over our 3♠. I suspect partner is 1=4=6=2 (I'd probably rebid 3NT with 23+ HCP 1=4=5=3) with a black suit ace and a club control (they might be the same), opposite which slam is a huge favourite.
I've changed my mind, I will blast 6♥.

[apollo1201]

Partner with a semi-balanced red hand (even 5431) should strive to rebid 2NT rather than the extremely space consuming 3D.

OTOH, some play that a jump to 3M is 6 D and 4 M so that your story is told one level lower than standard methods. Should we play this trick, then 4H is a cue agreeing S.

Playing standard, it is unlikely we are off 2 aces or one + DK (unless partner has lots of black honors and feared 1D might get passed).

But 5H tells that I have a good trump support and nothing else useful to say. Partner will visualize KJxx, 5 spades and no C singleton, and maybe some non-ace side honors. They would be able to figure out what next - probably 6H, more rarely 7 or pass.

[jillybean]

---

I didn't play this hand, wish I had. It's much easier to say I would have got to one of the red slams now, no one did.

[the hog]

Playing full Kokish responses, the bidding might go2C 2D3H
Where 3H shows 4H and long Ds to cope with this sort of hand. However in the real world1D 1S2H 4H and you are off to a good start.

[mikeh]

the hog, on 2023-February-20, 00:23, said:

Playing full Kokish responses, the bidding might go2C 2D3H
Where 3H shows 4H and long Ds to cope with this sort of hand. However in the real world1D 1S2H 4H and you are off to a good start.

I’m not sure that’s Kokish. If it is, I think it’s fairly recent (with a broad definition of recent). I’ve had coaching from Kokish (his materials are amazing and humbling) but don’t recall seeing him there, or later, advocating for that treatment. If he did, he’d have a full set of developments. One of the flaws, for example, is how responder can agree the major. Say 2C 2D 3S, showing 4S and longer diamonds. As responder, how do you distinguish between a weak hand wanting to go no further than 4S and either a stronger but not really strong hand, that has some interest in slam but can’t insist on it or a stronger hand, intent on slam but considering grand

4S won’t work for more than one of these possibilities. It’s this problem that persuaded me that this treatment creates worse problems than the one it solves, although reasonable people can disagree

[the hog]

You had me worried there for a second Mike. I was sure I had read that somewhere and now I thought I was dreaming.
From Eric's notes with Beverley Kraft


RELATED SEQUENCES:
2C 2D*
2H* Hearts (second suit possible) OR balanced game force (unrelated to hearts)
2S Natural, game-forcing (9+ tricks)
2NT 23-24 HCP, semi-balanced
3m Natural, 10+ tricks
3M 4M/5+D, game force
3NT Solid C or D or S, no slam, 9+ tricks, stoppers
4C 5=4=0=4, game force (responder’s 4D=”unbiddable” extras for M; 4NT same for clubs)
4D 5=4=4=0, game force (responder’s 5C=”unbiddable” extras for M; 4NT same for D)
4M Signoff, too many controls missing (responder may bid with side void)
2C 2D*
2H* Hearts (second suit possible) OR balanced game force (unrelated to hearts)
2S* Relay
2NT Balanced
3C One-suited heart two-bid inappropriate for jump to 3NT
3D Hearts and diamonds
3H Hearts and secondary spades
3S Hearts and clubs
3NT Solid hearts, no slam, 9+ tricks, stoppers
4x Hearts and void (AKx AKQJxxx KQ10 ---; looking for help in side suits)
2C 2D*
2H* Hearts (second suit possible) OR balanced game force (unrelated to hearts)
2NT* 6S
3C 6C
3D* 6D+3H
3H* 6S+3H
3S* 6C+3H
As you say, the notes are very thorough and there is a bit more. I tried to find a date on this but could not. The whole system is 382 pages.
I also remember reading that 2C 2H 3M showing 4M and long D only applied to Hearts and not S. However that is contra indicated by the above. I am getting old I guess.

[nullve]

My auction, with opps silent(!!!):

1♦(1)-1♥(2)
2N(3)-3♣(4)
4♣(5)-4♠(6)
5♥(7)-5♠(8)
6♣(9)-6♥(10)
P

(1) «10+, NATish unBAL or 20–22 BAL»
(2) «0+, (3)4+ S»
(3) «GF, either 5+D4+H or one-suited with 6+ D”
(4) relay
(5) 21+, 0463
(6) key card ask with hearts as trumps
(7) odd # of key cards, trump Q, ♦K
(8) ♣K ask
(9) ♣K, no ♦Q
(10) contract

[jillybean]

the hog, on 2023-February-20, 00:23, said:

Playing full Kokish responses, the bidding might go2C 2D3H
Where 3H shows 4H and long Ds to cope with this sort of hand. However in the real world. 1D 1S2H 4H and you are off to a good start.

In the real world, wouldn't you open this 2C?

[the hog]

jillybean, on 2023-February-20, 03:36, said:

In the real world, wouldn't you open this 2C?

No Kathryn. My partner's respond very light. As you can gather from Mike's comments above, opening 2C on a big hand with Ds is awkward.

[Cyberyeti]

nullve, on 2023-February-20, 02:20, said:

My auction, with opps silent(!!!):

1♦(1)-1♥(2)
2N(3)-3♣(4)
4♣(5)-4♠(6)
5♥(7)-5♠(8)
6♣(9)-6♥(10)
P

(1) «10+, NATish unBAL or 20–22 BAL»
(2) «0+, (3)4+ S»
(3) «GF, either 5+D4+H or one-suited with 6+ D”
(4) relay
(5) 21+, 0463
(6) key card ask with hearts as trumps
(7) odd # of key cards, trump Q, ♦K
(8) ♣K ask
(9) ♣K, no ♦Q
(10) contract

I'm always suspicious of auctions like this, I suspect I end up in 7 which is fairly decent, but may or may not make on the likely spade lead.

[akwoo]

mikeh, on 2023-February-20, 00:51, said:

I’m not sure that’s Kokish. If it is, I think it’s fairly recent (with a broad definition of recent). I’ve had coaching from Kokish (his materials are amazing and humbling) but don’t recall seeing him there, or later, advocating for that treatment. If he did, he’d have a full set of developments. One of the flaws, for example, is how responder can agree the major. Say 2C 2D 3S, showing 4S and longer diamonds. As responder, how do you distinguish between a weak hand wanting to go no further than 4S and either a stronger but not really strong hand, that has some interest in slam but can’t insist on it or a stronger hand, intent on slam but considering grand

4S won’t work for more than one of these possibilities. It’s this problem that persuaded me that this treatment creates worse problems than the one it solves, although reasonable people can disagree

I think it's sensible to agree that at this point you must play in one of opener's suits or NT, so 4D agrees diamonds (and is forcing), a raise to 4M is non-forcing, and new suits agree the major and show a control and some slam interest.

Yes this has the downside that one can't play in one of responder's suits.

Maybe it's sensible to give up on 3N as well and use it for (non)-serious of some sort, or for getting out in one of responder's suits. But I generally avoid using 3N as conventional because forgets are both likely and costly.

[jillybean]

Can we please take a step back, this is the I/A forum. We don't have 300 page agreements, just learning to bid these hands intelligently.
I don't see an alternative to opening this hand 2C despite the disadvantages of having a diamond suit. I think anything else is going to force us to take over the bidding and partner isn't going to know what is going on.
If I was 6-5 I can comfortably open 1D and bid the hearts next.

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2023-February-20, 12:51, said:

Can we please take a step back, this is the I/A forum. We don't have 300 page agreements, just learning to bid these hands intelligently.
I don't see an alternative to opening this hand 2C despite the disadvantages of having a diamond suit. I think anything else is going to force us to take over the bidding and partner isn't going to know what is going on.
If I was 6-5 I can comfortably open 1D and bid the hearts next.

With 13 spades missing, the chance of you playing in 1♦ is pretty remote.

We would start with 1♦ with a GF unbalanced 2N to follow in theory except it probably goes 1♦-(1♠)-P-(2♠)-3♥-(P/3♠)-4♥

Now you go slamming, we can bid 4N as exclusion here as 4♠ would be keycard and it's just a question of whether we bid 6 or 7.

[akwoo]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-February-20, 13:13, said:

With 13 spades missing, the chance of you playing in 1♦ is pretty remote.

At an average club, with the given layout, I would rate the chances of a 1♦ bid being passed out at about 50%.

Club players overcall a lot less than they should. Sometimes they get lucky.

[sfi]

TBH I struggle to see how to get to slam most of the time. I would expect the auction to start:

1D - (1S) - P - (2S)
X - (P) - 3H - (P)

Now it's hard for West to do more than just raise to game. Maybe West finds an inspired 3S call, which means East could finally show some values. Or maybe East bids again after West raises to game. Even then it's not clear they reach slam. It's a well-deserved result if they do though.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2023-February-20, 12:51, said:

Can we please take a step back, this is the I/A forum.
...
I don't see an alternative to opening this hand 2C despite the disadvantages of having a diamond suit. I think anything else is going to force us to take over the bidding and partner isn't going to know what is going on.
If I was 6-5 I can comfortably open 1D and bid the hearts next.

If you are comfortable with 6-5 then why not with 6-4 and a void?
Normal I/A systems have robust methods for bidding with shapes like this starting from level 1.
Starting to describe this hand from level 3 is a hopeless task for players of any level.

[Cyberyeti]

akwoo, on 2023-February-20, 19:20, said:

At an average club, with the given layout, I would rate the chances of a 1♦ bid being passed out at about 50%.

Club players overcall a lot less than they should. Sometimes they get lucky.

Partner responds a lot more than average club players. 4th seat I find people protect way more often than they should.

[nullve]

Cyberyeti, on 2023-February-20, 04:58, said:

I'm always suspicious of auctions like this

Auctions like this, what are they?