[jillybean]

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[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2023-October-28, 18:21, said:

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Misfits don’t usually play as well as their hcp suggests, but we do have 18 hcp so that’s too much to bid 3N. Also, though rarely, partner might be 5=6 reds so even if partner takes 4N as natural (and it should be, imo) we may not be able to find hearts. Also, our clubs are bad for slam purposes

I’d stall with 3S, hoping to buy a 3N bid which I can comfortably raise to 4N

If he raises spades, he won’t have a club card and now slam doesn’t look good. If by some miracle he bids 4H, I’ll bid 6H. 1=4=5=3 hands don’t raise spades even with xxx in clubs.

Btw, if I bid 3C over 2D, I’d be promising a good 15 or so, hence my hoped-for sequence would clearly show 17+.

If he bids 4D over 3S, I bid 4H, offering the moysian while pretty much showing 5=3=1=4.

[DavidKok]

I play EDIT:3♥ as a fourth suit punt here, and with a good stopper and extras we respond a natural 4NT. With diamonds and hearts partner has a comfortable 3NT or 4NT (both natural) over 3♣, so that hand type doesn't need to bid 3♥. It is not perfect but very easy to play compared to having a few rounds of nebulous bids.

[mikeh]

So I take it that you bid 4N here?

That’s my second choice and not far behind my 3S (which is, on my preferred methods, our punt…6=4 blacks bid 2S which shows 14+ since we open 2S on 9-13….obviously most don’t)

Btw, I hate 4H as a punt. You’re often end playing partner in the bidding and you’re beyond 3N which is often best, especially when you lack the values for 4N


Edit: we do use the raise if 4th suit as our punt if it’s below 3N

[DavidKok]

Sorry, that was a very confusing typo. 3♥ is my punt, not 4♥. I meant that partner hasn't shown any particular number of hearts (other than implicitly by failure to raise spades, clubs or rebid diamonds).
I'd bid 4NT here.

[AL78]

It must depend somewhat on the system. If 2♦ shows 9+ HCP e.g. we are playing Acol or 5CM without 2/1 I would bid 3NT on the basis it looks like a misfit and if partner has a very good 2/1 response they have the choice to go on if slam is there despite the misfit. If 2♦ is GF then I can see the case for doing something more enthusiastic.

[jillybean]

2♦ is gf, playing 2/1, 3 new suit by opener shows extra's over a 2/1.

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I did bid 4N but for the wrong reasons, this is the response I expected and I like to think I would have bid 6N

[jillybean]

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[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2023-October-29, 08:39, said:

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I did bid 4N but for the wrong reasons, this is the response I expected and I like to think I would have bid 6N

4N for me should be quantitative, I don't much like it but it would have worked with partner bidding 6N.

Given the West hand shown later, I don't understand why partner failed to raise 3♣ to 4♣, after which 6♣ is fairly automatic and a reasonable contract.

[DavidKok]

I wouldn't bid 6NT over 4NT. What's the rush? We've failed to support clubs, but partner has given us another chance. 7♣ might be on, or 6♣ might be better than 6NT. Why jump (another) two levels? Just bid 5♣, setting trumps and forcing to slam. Though I agree 4♣ last round would have made life a lot easier.

[Cyberyeti]

Is 1♠-2♦-3♣-4♦(kickback) out of the question ? you're in a GF auction, so 3♦ is forcing so 4♦ ought to be KB, particularly if it can't be a huge diamond suit because you haven't SJSd, establishing the ♣Q was missing, grand could be on but is unlikely (give E KQ, J10 in the reds or W the two pointy jacks) so we're finishing up in 6♣/6N.

Playing what we play:

1♠-2♦
2N (GF not necessarily bal)-3♣ (nat)
4♣ [implies a hand better in high cards than rebidding 3♣ immediately]

and on our merry way

[DavidKok]

If you play Kickback that seems like a good option. There will be plenty of room to ask for the king and even queen of hearts after, depending on your followups.

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2023-October-30, 02:37, said:

I wouldn't bid 6NT over 4NT. What's the rush? We've failed to support clubs, but partner has given us another chance. 7♣ might be on, or 6♣ might be better than 6NT. Why jump (another) two levels? Just bid 5♣, setting trumps and forcing to slam.

I would play 5♣ over 4NT as invitational to slam and forcing to 5NT, which is insufficient for this hand.

If that sounds like too small a target, I seem to remember sfi suggesting 5♣ as 5=card and 6♣ as 6=card, which has some merits.

[DavidKok]

I don't think we need 5 (or 6) to show the clubs after partner has shown four. I do use the jumps here to suggest extra length, but on the example auction this is superfluous.

If 5♣ is forcing then it will work just fine, we can always pull 5NT to 6♣ later. I do think trying to play 5NT is too narrow a target.

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2023-October-30, 07:09, said:

I don't think we need 5 (or 6) to show the clubs after partner has shown four. I do use the jumps here to suggest extra length, but on the example auction this is superfluous.

If 5♣ is forcing then it will work just fine, we can always pull 5NT to 6♣ later. I do think trying to play 5NT is too narrow a target.

My narrow target was inviting partner to decide between 5NT/6♣/6NT once informed of my clubs. But yes, I do retain the option to pull 5NT to 6♧.

I agree it's a sequence that doesn't make much sense here (it wasn't me that proposed anything except 4♣ over 3♣). I was thinking more in general after a 4NT quantitative invite (say 1NT 4NT; 5♣ ?).