[jillybean]

..
Starting a new thread so as not to hijack the other

 jillybean, on 2024-May-01, 19:53, said:

yes, missed the pass

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I can bid 2♥ or 2♠ but what I can't do is tell partner I have a M and a bust hand, 2M I think should be forward going.

 mikeh, on 2024-May-01, 23:38, said:

This is very wrong. The way to show no game interest opposite an average to slightly above average takeout double is to bid your suit at the two level. Why on earth would you feel it’s better to contract for 9 tricks with a bad hand while reserving 2x for a good hand? It’s the exact opposite of normal bidding.

2C is ostensibly 5+ clubs 10-15 , 4 cM possible but unlikely
Players shade and open these 2 level bids aggressively. Perhaps not in Marlowe's match but at the club I wouldn’t be surprised to see an aggressive mini nt hand put down. I’m treating this as a hefty weak 2


Yes, I’m still masterminding. I should bid my hand consistently and reliably and not try to cater for opponents imperfections.

[jillybean]

Posted.

[P_Marlowe]

Such a 2C opening are part of Polish Club / strong Club systems, sometimes with the option of
a side 4 card major, sometimes not, most of the time this will mean clubs are 6+, this is depend
on other parts of the system.
Our opponents played Blue Club, a strong Club system, with 1H / 1S showing 4+,
i.e. they would open 1H / 1S, even with longer Clubs.

I think Fantunes also used to play 2 level openings as natural, limited strength.

And 2NT is certainly Lebensohl, but in your auction it is coming from a passed hand,
that denied opening strength. And if you are below opening strength, you dont have enough strength
to force to game facing a normal T/O.

2NT Lebensohl allowes you to bid a major on the 3 level in 2 ways, via 2NT or direct via a jump.
This gives you the option to show a weak hand with the major, by bidding on the 2 level, intermediate
strength, going via 2NT, and game forcing strength jumping to the 3 level.
You can switch the meaning of the delayed bidding and the jump bidding seq.

Given that the passed hand status, game forcing strength option is no longer relevant, you only have
2 strength level to show, weak and intermediate / invitational.

Which may mean, that 2NT becomes natural.

If you want to have a more common seq., look at

1NT (1) - 2C (2) - 2NT (3)

(1) your NT strength
(2) natural
(3) Lebensohl

and what are the meaning of 2H, 3H via 2NT and 3H direct.
Depending on your NT strength, the fact that the 2NT has denied opening strength, may not imply, that he
does not have enough to force to game.

[DavidKok]

I like using 2♦ as Lebensohl on (2♣ natural)-X-(P)-?, but it is besides the point here.

In the other thread I mentioned wanting a bid for ever hand, not a hand for every bid. Set aside what 2NT does or does not mean for now, and please tell me what you play pass, 2♦ through 2♠ and 3♦ through 3NT as. I'm not trying to be mean - I think the natural meanings of these bids will cover most hands. There is simply no need to put a lot of stuff in 2NT. So, actually seriously, can you please spell out what these bids mean to you?

[johnu]

 P_Marlowe, on 2024-May-02, 10:04, said:

Our opponents played Blue Club, a strong Club system, with 1H / 1S showing 4+,
i.e. they would open 1H / 1S, even with longer Clubs.

In standard Blue Team, 2♣ is either 6+ clubs or 5+ clubs and a 4+ side suit. If there is a 4+ card side suit, then the hand is a maximum (of course less than 1♣) with a concentration of values in the 2 suits. The reasoning is that if responder decides to look for a major suit contract, and there isn't one, then there is enough playing strength to not end up in a hopeless contract.

[jillybean]

 P_Marlowe, on 2024-May-02, 10:04, said:

Such a 2C opening are part of Polish Club / strong Club systems, sometimes with the option of
a side 4 card major, sometimes not, most of the time this will mean clubs are 6+, this is depend
on other parts of the system.
Our opponents played Blue Club, a strong Club system, with 1H / 1S showing 4+,
i.e. they would open 1H / 1S, even with longer Clubs.

I think Fantunes also used to play 2 level openings as natural, limited strength.

And 2NT is certainly Lebensohl, but in your auction it is coming from a passed hand,
that denied opening strength. And if you are below opening strength, you dont have enough strength
to force to game facing a normal T/O.

2NT Lebensohl allowes you to bid a major on the 3 level in 2 ways, via 2NT or direct via a jump.
This gives you the option to show a weak hand with the major, by bidding on the 2 level, intermediate
strength, going via 2NT, and game forcing strength jumping to the 3 level.
You can switch the meaning of the delayed bidding and the jump bidding seq.

Given that the passed hand status, game forcing strength option is no longer relevant, you only have
2 strength level to show, weak and intermediate / invitational.

Which may mean, that 2NT becomes natural.

If you want to have a more common seq., look at

1NT (1) - 2C (2) - 2NT (3)

(1) your NT strength
(2) natural
(3) Lebensohl

and what are the meaning of 2H, 3H via 2NT and 3H direct.
Depending on your NT strength, the fact that the 2NT has denied opening strength, may not imply, that he
does not have enough to force to game.

All this is theoretical as I am not playing enough bridge/don't have this detail of agreement in any partnership.

If I am treating the 2♣ bid as a hefty weak 2 and I open all 12 counts and some 11 counts, a natural 2nt rebid by a passed hand seems to be a very small target.
If the natural 2nt rebid is rare, why not use 2NT to stop at the 3 level, leaving 2M as natural, 8-9(10) and more room to explore or correct to partners suit.
(Yeah, this is backwards)
If I have spades and 9hcp over P (2C*) X (P) and I use 3S to show this hand, partner is forced to bid 4H with a heart hand - but would have bid 2H over 2C with that hand.

I believe the meaning of my usual non passed hand leb responses are standard
2H to play
3H via 2NT invitational
3H direct gf

[jillybean]

 DavidKok, on 2024-May-02, 10:46, said:

I like using 2♦ as Lebensohl on (2♣ natural)-X-(P)-?, but it is besides the point here.

In the other thread I mentioned wanting a bid for ever hand, not a hand for every bid. Set aside what 2NT does or does not mean for now, and please tell me what you play pass, 2♦ through 2♠ and 3♦ through 3NT as. I'm not trying to be mean - I think the natural meanings of these bids will cover most hands. There is simply no need to put a lot of stuff in 2NT. So, actually seriously, can you please spell out what these bids mean to you?

If I'm treating the 2♣ opening as a standard strength opening then a 2 level response is minimum, a 3 level response invitation/max passed hand.
3nt max hand with club stopper, I assume.

[DavidKok]

 jillybean, on 2024-May-02, 15:15, said:

If I'm treating the 2♣ opening as a standard strength opening then a 2 level response is minimum, a 3 level response invitation/max passed hand.
3nt max hand with club stopper, I assume.

I agree, and pass a hand with decently long clubs and no other bid. Also 2♦ might be the smallest lie.

I think this covers weak and invitational hands with 4(+) cards in a major, weak hands without much of anything (pass or 2♦) and maximum hands with good clubs (3NT). We may demand that direct 3M shows 5 and put the strong hands with 4 in 3♣, perhaps. So what's left are the (semi)balanced hand without a 4cM and no desire to pass for penalties, the prime example being a 3=3=3=4 10-count. Personally I think these hands will be stuck regardless and it's not particularly great to put them in 2NT, but you very well could. Most other hands already have a bid.

[jillybean]

I'm reluctant to reopen this but here goes.

If you are playing mini NT (10-12)

P (2C*prec) X (P)
2NT

The 2NT bid would be rare. A hand with clubs, wanting to play in NT, no other bid.