[nullve]

So what did you open with 11-13 BAL in 3rd/4th?

[effervesce]

 nullve, on 2024-September-02, 01:24, said:

So what did you open with 11-13 BAL in 3rd/4th?

In 1st/2nd, 1NT=11-13, 1D-1M-1NT was 14-15(16).

Flip it around for 3rd/4th - 1NT=14-16, open 1D with 11-13.

This structure enables you to do some really interesting things since 1D opener denies 6m -

1D- 1H - 2C promises 5/4-5 in the minors

1D - 1H - 2D (an "impossible" rebid) shows a "good"/max 4 card heart raise, and 1D- 1S - 2H would show a good spade raise

while 1D - 1H - 2H would be a "bad"/min heart raisem, and 1D - 1S - 2S would show a poor spade raise

while 1D - 1S - 2D would show 4 hearts and 5 diamonds.

This allows you to avoid lots of unnecessary invites, and gives partner super good description of your hand even with a "nebulous" diamond.

[blackshoe]

Interesting system. When's the book coming out? :-)

[effervesce]

I have a 30 page document with all the info required to play the system.

It has full symmetric relays based on Paul Marston's Moscito system over 1C opener, with 1C-1S as the negative, 1C - 1D as gameforce, and others as semipositive (full relays available for both the gf and semipositives but also nonforcing bids after semipositives).

You (or anyone else) want to learn the system?

Im looking for a partner to get back into bridge. I was ridiculously good back in 2009, now im 1/10th the player I was back then.

But this system let me and partner get 68% every session of the Australian open pairs, and helped carry me in the Asia Pacific junior championships (Im very very good at defence and bidding, but mediocre declarer, and partner was very good at declaring, but mediocre bidding and defence).

Anyone living down under wanting to learn give me a buzz

[awm]

 effervesce, on 2024-September-02, 01:15, said:

The system me and my partner played to extreme success was had the following

1C* = 16+ ANY unbalanced or 17+ balanced
1D* = 10-15, 0+ diamonds, no 5 card major or 6 card minor (not balanced 11-13)
1H = 10-15, 5+ hearts
1S = 10-15, 5+ spades
1NT* = balanced, 11-13 in 1st/2nd, balanced 14-16 in 3rd/4th seat
2C = 10-15, 6+ clubs
2D = 10-15, 6+ diamonds
2H = about 5-9, weak 2, 6 card suit
2S = about 5-9, weak 2, 6 card suit

Like you said, it makes the 1D - 1X - 2m bids quite well defined.

We saw extreme success with this, winning some junior and open tournaments until life and work made me stop playing.

This is very similar to what Sam and I have been playing for the last 20 or so years, although we dropped the weak notrump pretty early on (we play 14-16 in 1st/2nd and 15-17 in 3rd/4th now) and our 1M opening standards may be a bit different from yours (we pass most balanced 10s and open most unbalanced 9s).

I suspect some of our follow-up agreements are different though, certainly we play different relays over 1♣.

[effervesce]

 awm, on 2024-September-03, 10:20, said:

This is very similar to what Sam and I have been playing for the last 20 or so years, although we dropped the weak notrump pretty early on (we play 14-16 in 1st/2nd and 15-17 in 3rd/4th now) and our 1M opening standards may be a bit different from yours (we pass most balanced 10s and open most unbalanced 9s).

I suspect some of our follow-up agreements are different though, certainly we play different relays over 1♣.

You didn't like a weak NT in a precision system? Sure, you might occasionally get hammered with it, but part of the reason for using it is to clean up the 1M auctions especially in a 2/1 "Lawrence" style 1M system since the 1M balanced openers would have to be a maximum hand not a minimum balanced hand (which would have opened 1NT).

For example, after 1H - 2C

	2D = 4+ diamonds
		2NT = artificial, forcing
			3C = club fragment (3+ clubs)
			3D = 5+ diamonds
			3H = 6+ hearts
			3S = 4+ spades
			3NT = 2542/3541
	2H = 5+ hearts, min
		2NT = artificial, forcing
			3C = 4+ clubs
			3D = 3 clubs
			3H = 6 hearts, 0-2 clubs (may have 4 spades)
			3S = 4+ spades
			3NT = 2632/3622 shape
	2S = 4+ spades, max
		2NT = artificial, forcing
			3C = club fragment (3+ clubs)
			3D = diamond fragment (3+ diamonds)
			3H = 6+ hearts
			3S = ---
			3NT = 4522
	2NT = 14-15(16) balanced (5332)
	3C = max, 4+ clubs

[awm]

 effervesce, on 2024-September-04, 10:19, said:

You didn't like a weak NT in a precision system? Sure, you might occasionally get hammered with it, but part of the reason for using it is to clean up the 1M auctions especially in a 2/1 "Lawrence" style 1M system since the 1M balanced openers would have to be a maximum hand not a minimum balanced hand (which would have opened 1NT).

For example, after 1H - 2C

	2D = 4+ diamonds
		2NT = artificial, forcing
			3C = club fragment (3+ clubs)
			3D = 5+ diamonds
			3H = 6+ hearts
			3S = 4+ spades
			3NT = 2542/3541
	2H = 5+ hearts, min
		2NT = artificial, forcing
			3C = 4+ clubs
			3D = 3 clubs
			3H = 6 hearts, 0-2 clubs (may have 4 spades)
			3S = 4+ spades
			3NT = 2632/3622 shape
	2S = 4+ spades, max
		2NT = artificial, forcing
			3C = club fragment (3+ clubs)
			3D = diamond fragment (3+ diamonds)
			3H = 6+ hearts
			3S = ---
			3NT = 4522
	2NT = 14-15(16) balanced (5332)
	3C = max, 4+ clubs

Our observations were:

1. Against weaker opponents, the 11-13 NT can get some big wins, but it's also a big randomizer and we don't necessarily want this opposite pairs we should beat easily. Against strong opponents, 11-13 NT especially at vulnerable does not seem to be a winner. For a while we played weak NT at NV only, but this means we need to play different methods in some auctions (like over our 1M) based on vulnerability and we didn't think it was worth it.
2. The 1♦ opening is already somewhat difficult for us to deal with in competition, and putting a strong notrump in there makes things quite a bit worse. It basically forces us to act with a lot of hands that "make game opposite 15 balanced" where we'd be better off passing opposite the common 11-counts that get opened.
3. Our continuations over 1M have never looked like what you play; we have found that "2/1 GF" is not a good approach when you open as light as we do (we typically open on "rule of 18" for unbalanced hands which means a lot of 9s and some 8s). It's just devoting too many calls to hands that are too infrequent.

Our balanced 1M openings are stronger in high card strength than our unbalanced ones, since balanced 1M is 11-13 and unbalanced major is 9-15.

[foobar]

awm, on 2024-September-04, 12:48, said:

Our observations were:

1. Against weaker opponents, the 11-13 NT can get some big wins, but it's also a big randomizer and we don't necessarily want this opposite pairs we should beat easily.

2. The 1♦ opening is already somewhat difficult for us to deal with in competition, and putting a strong notrump in there makes things quite a bit worse. It basically forces us to act with a lot of hands that "make game opposite 15 balanced" where we'd be better off passing opposite the common 11-counts that get opened.
3. Our continuations over 1M have never looked like what you play; we have found that "2/1 GF" is not a good approach when you open as light as we do (we typically open on "rule of 18")

+1 to all of the above. Depending on your preference, it's best to assign one canonical GF over 1M and one invite bid (say 2C/2D if you want to keep things simple).

[kwiktrix]

As PrecisionL can attest, I’ve played two very similar systems to those described for 25+ years

Charron 5M Ver 2.7

• 1♣ = all 15+ - Symmetrical Relay (Charron)
  
• 1♦ = 10-14; all UNB 4M and all (31)(54)
  
  • 1M = 4+M (denies other M)
    
    • 1♠ = 4144
      
    • 2m-1 = 4OM5m
      
    • 2♦ = 3M
      
    • 2M = 4M
      
    • 2OM = 1M3OM45
      
    • 2N = 1M3OM54
      
    • 3m = 4OM6m
    
    
  • 1N = F1, not 4+M
    
  • 2♣ = ART GF - Symmetrical Relay (Charron)
    
  • 2♦ = weak both M
    
  • 2♥ = 44+ M GI
    
  • 2♠ = 54+ M GI
  
  
• 1M = 10-14, UNB 5+M
  
  • 1♠ = F1, 0-4s; 1N = F1, 5+s
    
  • 1N = F1 weak/invite
    
  • 2♣ = ART GF - Symmetrical Relay (Charron)
    
  • 2M-1 = 10-11, 3M or 4M (raise 2M rebid to 3M with 4cards)
    
  • 2M = 0-9, 3M or 4M
    
  • 2N = 12-13, 3M or 4M
    
  • 3m = mini-splinters
    
  • 3M = 6-9, 4M
  
  
• 1N = 12-14 BAL, All 5332, 4432, 4333, 22(54), 22(63)
  
  • 2♣ = GF - Symmetrical Relay (Charron)
    
  • 2M-1 = 5+M, weak+; 4+M, GI+
    
  • 2♠ = RA/Puppet Stayman
    
  • 2N = weak minor
    
  • 3m = invites both majors
    
  • 3M = splinter with 3OM
  
  
• 2m = 6+m, guarantees 3M or 5M (5M6m is placed here to simplify Relay over 1M)
  
• 2M = weak, 5+ NV, 6+ V
  
• 2N = weak+, both minors

Ver 3.0 has major changes
A) the 1♠ bid has been changed to 8-11 4-5BAL or 4UNB
B) the 1♣ bid has been changed to incorporate the original 10-14 1♠ opening. This reduces arbitrary interference over 1♣. Since the 1♠ response shows trash, it can be passed by opener with spades.

[kwiktrix]

This is the other system, which addresses the 5M332 discussion. Haven't played this is in 10+ years.

Charron 4M Ver 1.6

• 1♣ = all 15+ - Symmetrical Relay (Charron)
  
• 1♦ = 10-14; 4-5♦5M (canape), 44M, or 5s332
  
  • 1M = 3+M (♥ before equal or longer ♠)
    
    • 1♠ = 5♠332
      
    • 1N = 44(32)
      
    • 2♣ = 4441
      
    • 2♦ = 4414
      
    • 2M = 4+♦5M or 5♠332
    
    
  • 1N = Weak, not 3+M
    
  • 2♣ = ART GF - Symmetrical Relay (Charron)
    
  • 2♦ = ART GI - no 3+M
  
  
• 1M = 10-14, UNB 4M or 6+M, 5♥332
  
  • 1♠ = 3+♠; then 1N = 5♥332, 2m = 4♥5+m, 2♥ = 6♥
    
  • 1N = F1 weak/invite
    
  • 2♣ = ART GF - Symmetrical Relay (Charron)
    
  • 2M-1 = 10-11, 4M or 5M (raise 2M rebid to 3M with 5cards)
    
  • 2M = 0-9, 4M or 5M
    
  • 2N = 12-13, 4M or 5M
    
  • 3m = mini-splinters
    
  • 3M = 6-9, 5M
  
  
• 1N = 12-14 BAL, All 4432, 4333, 22(54), 22(63), 5m332
  
  • 2♣ = GF - Symmetrical Relay (Charron)
    
  • 2M-1 = 5+M, weak+; 4+M, GI+
    
  • 2♠ = RA/Puppet Stayman
    
  • 2N = weak minor
    
  • 3m = invites both majors
    
  • 3M = splinter with 3OM
  
  
• 2♣ = 4+♣5M, or 6+♣
  
• 2♦ = 4+♦5+♣, or 6+♦
  
• 2M = weak, 5+ NV, 6+ V
  
• 2N = weak+, both minors

[foobar]

 kwiktrix, on 2024-September-09, 16:01, said:

This is the other system, which addresses the 5M332 discussion. Haven't played this is in 10+ years.

Charron 4M Ver 1.6

• 1♣ = all 15+ - Symmetrical Relay (Charron)
  
• 1♦ = 10-14; 4-5♦5M (canape), 44M, or 5s332
  
  • 1M = 3+M (♥ before equal or longer ♠)
    
    • 1♠ = 5♠332
      
    • 1N = 44(32)
      
    • 2♣ = 4441
      
    • 2♦ = 4414
      
    • 2M = 4+♦5M or 5♠332
    
    
  • 1N = Weak, not 3+M
    
  • 2♣ = ART GF - Symmetrical Relay (Charron)
    
  • 2♦ = ART GI - no 3+M
  
  
• 1M = 10-14, UNB 4M or 6+M, 5♥332
  
  • 1♠ = 3+♠; then 1N = 5♥332, 2m = 4♥5+m, 2♥ = 6♥
    
  • 1N = F1 weak/invite
    
  • 2♣ = ART GF - Symmetrical Relay (Charron)
    
  • 2M-1 = 10-11, 4M or 5M (raise 2M rebid to 3M with 5cards)
    
  • 2M = 0-9, 4M or 5M
    
  • 2N = 12-13, 4M or 5M
    
  • 3m = mini-splinters
    
  • 3M = 6-9, 5M
  
  
• 1N = 12-14 BAL, All 4432, 4333, 22(54), 22(63), 5m332
  
  • 2♣ = GF - Symmetrical Relay (Charron)
    
  • 2M-1 = 5+M, weak+; 4+M, GI+
    
  • 2♠ = RA/Puppet Stayman
    
  • 2N = weak minor
    
  • 3m = invites both majors
    
  • 3M = splinter with 3OM
  
  
• 2♣ = 4+♣5M, or 6+♣
  
• 2♦ = 4+♦5+♣, or 6+♦
  
• 2M = weak, 5+ NV, 6+ V
  
• 2N = weak+, both minors

Another variation is my take on AEC (search forum for more details):

1C: 16+ (17+ balanced)
1D: 4M5+m OR 11-13 balanced (11-14 in 3rd/4th; can open 1M with 5332)
1M: 5+ unbalanced OR 41M44 (always open 1H unless stiff)
1N: 14 -16 / (14+)15-17 (3rd and 4th)
2m: 5+m, maybe 4+oM
2M: Weak
2N: Either 5m5m OR 19-20 balanced

[kwiktrix]

 effervesce, on 2024-September-04, 10:19, said:

For example, after 1H - 2C

	2D = 4+ diamonds
		2NT = artificial, forcing
			3C = club fragment (3+ clubs)
			3D = 5+ diamonds
			3H = 6+ hearts
			3S = 4+ spades
			3NT = 2542/3541
	2H = 5+ hearts, min
		2NT = artificial, forcing
			3C = 4+ clubs
			3D = 3 clubs
			3H = 6 hearts, 0-2 clubs (may have 4 spades)
			3S = 4+ spades
			3NT = 2632/3622 shape
	2S = 4+ spades, max
		2NT = artificial, forcing
			3C = club fragment (3+ clubs)
			3D = diamond fragment (3+ diamonds)
			3H = 6+ hearts
			3S = ---
			3NT = 4522
	2NT = 14-15(16) balanced (5332)
	3C = max, 4+ clubs

Using Charron Symmetric Relay, one can get exact distribution for 98% of the patterns after a 1M opening. There are two Tracks for the RELAY. The first Track is used for hands with 3 unique suit lengths NOT including the major suit opening length (5M431 and 5M530 are examples). Track 1 is also used for two- or three-suiters (5M422 and 5M440 are examples) that do not have an obvious dominant suit (7M411 is an unfortunate exception) and have only two unique remaining suits. The second Track is used for single-suiters, all of which have only two unique remaining suits and have an obvious dominant suit.

Both Track 1 and Track 2 employ a Keysuit - generally the longest suit of the remaining three suits. However when 2 of the remaining suits have the same length, the Keysuit is the one with UNIQUE length. Examples are: 5440 hand - the keysuit is the void. 6331 - the keysuit is the singleton.

When reading the Relay sequences, note that Track 1 bids in parentheses {} are optional and are used when appropriate for the exact shape}. Track 2 bids are indicated with <>. Parentheses <{}> are used to show optional Track 2 bids.

Finally, for the 1H opening, make the following simple changes:
1) 2D bid becomes clubs keysuit
2) 2H bid becomes spades keysuit
3) 2S bid refers to hearts

1S = 5+s UNB
    2C = ART GF 
       {2D = heart keysuit --> 2H RELAY} - SKIP if a Minor 
       {2H = club keysuit --> 2S RELAY} - SKIP if Diamonds
       <2S = 6+ spades --> 2N RELAY> - singlesuiter - CANNOT have 4 unique suit lengths like 7321 
	  <{3C = High keysuit --> 3D RELAY}> - SKIP if Low or Middle keysuit
	  <{3D = Middle keysuit --> 3H RELAY}> - SKIP if Low keysuit
           <3H = 7222 (No Short)>
	   <3S = 6322 (keysuit is 3 card suit)>
	   <3N = 6331 (keysuit is singleton)>
	   <4C = 7330 (keysuit is void)>
	   <4D = 8221 (keysuit is singleton)>
       {2N = High Short --> 3C RELAY} - SKIP if Low Short or No Short
       {3C = No Short --> 3D RELAY} - SKIP if Low Short
            3H = 5422 (keysuit is 4 card suit)
	    3S = 5440 (keysuit is void)
	    3N = 6511 (keysuit is 5 card suit)
	    4C = 7411 (keysuit is 4 card suit)
	3D = 5431
	3H = 6421
	3S = 5521
	3N = 5530
	4C = 7321

[foobar]

 kwiktrix, on 2024-September-10, 15:02, said:

Using Charron Symmetric Relay, one can get exact distribution for 98% of the patterns after a 1M opening. There are two Tracks for the RELAY. The first Track is used for hands with 3 unique suit lengths NOT including the major suit opening length (5M431 and 5M530 are examples). Track 1 is also used for two- or three-suiters (5M422 and 5M440 are examples) that do not have an obvious dominant suit (7M411 is an unfortunate exception) and have only two unique remaining suits. The second Track is used for single-suiters, all of which have only two unique remaining suits and have an obvious dominant suit.

Both Track 1 and Track 2 employ a Keysuit - generally the longest suit of the remaining three suits. However when 2 of the remaining suits have the same length, the Keysuit is the one with UNIQUE length. Examples are: 5440 hand - the keysuit is the void. 6331 - the keysuit is the singleton.

When reading the Relay sequences, note that Track 1 bids in parentheses {} are optional and are used when appropriate for the exact shape}. Track 2 bids are indicated with <>. Parentheses <{}> are used to show optional Track 2 bids.

Finally, for the 1H opening, make the following simple changes:
1) 2D bid becomes clubs keysuit
2) 2H bid becomes spades keysuit
3) 2S bid refers to hearts

1S = 5+s UNB
    2C = ART GF 
       {2D = heart keysuit --> 2H RELAY} - SKIP if a Minor 
       {2H = club keysuit --> 2S RELAY} - SKIP if Diamonds
       <2S = 6+ spades --> 2N RELAY> - singlesuiter - CANNOT have 4 unique suit lengths like 7321 
	  <{3C = High keysuit --> 3D RELAY}> - SKIP if Low or Middle keysuit
	  <{3D = Middle keysuit --> 3H RELAY}> - SKIP if Low keysuit
           <3H = 7222 (No Short)>
	   <3S = 6322 (keysuit is 3 card suit)>
	   <3N = 6331 (keysuit is singleton)>
	   <4C = 7330 (keysuit is void)>
	   <4D = 8221 (keysuit is singleton)>
       {2N = High Short --> 3C RELAY} - SKIP if Low Short or No Short
       {3C = No Short --> 3D RELAY} - SKIP if Low Short
            3H = 5422 (keysuit is 4 card suit)
	    3S = 5440 (keysuit is void)
	    3N = 6511 (keysuit is 5 card suit)
	    4C = 7411 (keysuit is 4 card suit)
	3D = 5431
	3H = 6421
	3S = 5521
	3N = 5530
	4C = 7321

Interesting scheme -- how are 4441s handled by the opening and / or relay? Also, how does the relay scheme work after a 1C opening?

[kwiktrix]

4441 isn’t a possible pattern with 5card majors.
I’ll post the Charron Relay over 1C later this week. 7222, 4333, and 4441 all have 1 keysuit.

[blackshoe]

 effervesce, on 2024-September-03, 02:43, said:

I have a 30 page document with all the info required to play the system.

It has full symmetric relays based on Paul Marston's Moscito system over 1C opener, with 1C-1S as the negative, 1C - 1D as gameforce, and others as semipositive (full relays available for both the gf and semipositives but also nonforcing bids after semipositives).

You (or anyone else) want to learn the system?

Im looking for a partner to get back into bridge. I was ridiculously good back in 2009, now im 1/10th the player I was back then.

But this system let me and partner get 68% every session of the Australian open pairs, and helped carry me in the Asia Pacific junior championships (Im very very good at defence and bidding, but mediocre declarer, and partner was very good at declaring, but mediocre bidding and defence).

Anyone living down under wanting to learn give me a buzz

I'm trying right at the moment to get a partner to switch from Standard American to Simple Modern Precision (cf. Victor Mollo, The Hog Plays Precision ) so I'm reluctant to take on another system right now. I would like to see your system notes, just out of curiosity. I'll drop you a PM with my email.

[foobar]

kwiktrix, on 2024-September-10, 15:02, said:

Using Charron Symmetric Relay, one can get exact distribution for 98% of the patterns after a 1M opening. There are two Tracks for the RELAY. The first Track is used for hands with 3 unique suit lengths NOT including the major suit opening length (5M431 and 5M530 are examples). Track 1 is also used for two- or three-suiters (5M422 and 5M440 are examples) that do not have an obvious dominant suit (7M411 is an unfortunate exception) and have only two unique remaining suits. The second Track is used for single-suiters, all of which have only two unique remaining suits and have an obvious dominant suit.

Both Track 1 and Track 2 employ a Keysuit - generally the longest suit of the remaining three suits. However when 2 of the remaining suits have the same length, the Keysuit is the one with UNIQUE length. Examples are: 5440 hand - the keysuit is the void. 6331 - the keysuit is the singleton.

When reading the Relay sequences, note that Track 1 bids in parentheses {} are optional and are used when appropriate for the exact shape}. Track 2 bids are indicated with <>. Parentheses <{}> are used to show optional Track 2 bids.

Finally, for the 1H opening, make the following simple changes:
1) 2D bid becomes clubs keysuit
2) 2H bid becomes spades keysuit
3) 2S bid refers to hearts

1S = 5+s UNB
    2C = ART GF 
       {2D = heart keysuit --> 2H RELAY} - SKIP if a Minor 
       {2H = club keysuit --> 2S RELAY} - SKIP if Diamonds
       <2S = 6+ spades --> 2N RELAY> - singlesuiter - CANNOT have 4 unique suit lengths like 7321 
	  <{3C = High keysuit --> 3D RELAY}> - SKIP if Low or Middle keysuit
	  <{3D = Middle keysuit --> 3H RELAY}> - SKIP if Low keysuit
           <3H = 7222 (No Short)>
	   <3S = 6322 (keysuit is 3 card suit)>
	   <3N = 6331 (keysuit is singleton)>
	   <4C = 7330 (keysuit is void)>
	   <4D = 8221 (keysuit is singleton)>
       {2N = High Short --> 3C RELAY} - SKIP if Low Short or No Short
       {3C = No Short --> 3D RELAY} - SKIP if Low Short
            3H = 5422 (keysuit is 4 card suit)
	    3S = 5440 (keysuit is void)
	    3N = 6511 (keysuit is 5 card suit)
	    4C = 7411 (keysuit is 4 card suit)
	3D = 5431
	3H = 6421
	3S = 5521
	3N = 5530
	4C = 7321

Is 6430 missing? Also, the label for 3♣ as no short seems a little misplaced since we can have several shapes with shortness?

[kwiktrix]

foobar, on 2024-September-14, 22:22, said:

Is 6430 missing? Also, the label for 3♣ as no short seems a little misplaced since we can have several shapes with shortness?

Thanks for the catch (I knew that they went as high as 4♦), I missed it in the "four different suits" group. It goes in 3♠ and move the following patterns up one bid.

3♦ = 5431
3♥ = 6421
3♠ = 6430
3N = 5521
4♣ = 5530
4♦ = 7321

I apply the term "no short" to any distribution that has is best described as a 2suiter (with some minor exceptions) without 3RD SUIT SHORTNESS. The best examples are 5431 has 3rd suit shortness (low short here), 5422 does not. 6502 has third suit shortness (high short here), 6511 does not. 5440 is a unique situation: when the major is known as it is with a 1M opening, all we need is the void suit and the pattern to have the exact shape. I can't classify it as a 1suiter, so here it lands.

[kwiktrix]

foobar, on 2024-September-07, 10:50, said:

+1 to all of the above. Depending on your preference, it's best to assign one canonical GF over 1M and one invite bid (say 2C/2D if you want to keep things simple).

IIRC the "Power System" used ART 2m to show GI and GF hands. But if one has an ART GF (say 2♣), then wouldn't any other forward going bids be either preemptive or otherwise invitational?

[foobar]

kwiktrix, on 2024-September-16, 15:19, said:

IIRC the "Power System" used ART 2m to show GI and GF hands. But if one has an ART GF (say 2♣), then wouldn't any other forward going bids be either preemptive or otherwise invitational?

Try searching for "double barelled invites" for the details, or perhaps awm will chime in. In this case, it was the 1S - 2C (GF) and 1S - 2D sequences per my recollection.

[foobar]

kwiktrix, on 2024-September-16, 15:06, said:

Thanks for the catch (I knew that they went as high as 4♦), I missed it in the "four different suits" group. It goes in 3♠ and move the following patterns up one bid.

3♦ = 5431
3♥ = 6421
3♠ = 6430
3N = 5521
4♣ = 5530
4♦ = 7321

I apply the term "no short" to any distribution that has is best described as a 2suiter (with some minor exceptions) without 3RD SUIT SHORTNESS. The best examples are 5431 has 3rd suit shortness (low short here), 5422 does not. 6502 has third suit shortness (high short here), 6511 does not. 5440 is a unique situation: when the major is known as it is with a 1M opening, all we need is the void suit and the pattern to have the exact shape. I can't classify it as a 1suiter, so here it lands.

BTW, are you the same Kurt from BridgeWinners who had posted on the same topic? If so, it will be interesting to see a version of the Charron relay over 1♣ that isn't tied to using 1♠ as DN. Basically, something that works over a 1♦ as 0-7ish, with remaining GF.

The idea is to see if the symmetry is possible without having to resort to the semi-positive and DN responses.