Opponent bids before you can alert
#1
Posted 2024-July-23, 19:38
Does it come down to whether you had 'reasonable time' to alert but delayed it vs whether RHO actually bid too early to allow you to alert?
#2
Posted 2024-July-23, 22:29
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#3
Posted 2024-July-24, 01:53
#4
Posted 2024-July-24, 09:37
sanst, on 2024-July-24, 01:53, said:
Which law are you referring to?
#5
Posted 2024-July-24, 10:55
PrecisionL, on 2024-July-24, 10:44, said:
Some directors chat this to the players at the beginning of the game.
Reading the OP this is apparently an old fashioned live game, with alert cards.
#6
Posted 2024-July-24, 11:54
jillybean, on 2024-July-24, 09:37, said:
The Laws don't regulate alerting, that's the responsibility of the RA. The Dutch alerting procedure says nothing about the speed of alerting, only how you should alert. If you're called in the situation described in the OP, you're on your own. You can't say: "Sorry, it's not in the Laws nor in the supplementary regulations, so I can't make a legal decision. Decide for yourselfs". No, you're the TD and should solve it.
Law 82A makes that his duty: "It is the responsibility of the Director to rectify errors of procedure and to maintain the progress of the game in a manner that is not contrary to these Laws." and 82B2 give him the power to "exercise any other power given to him in these Laws".
#7
Posted 2024-July-24, 22:31
LAW 21 - MISINFORMATION
A. Call or Play Based on Player’s Own Misunderstanding No rectification or redress is due to a player who acts on the basis of his own misunderstanding.
B. Call Based on Misinformation from an Opponent
1. (a) Until the end of the auction period (see Law 17D) and provided that his partner has not subsequently called, a player may change a call without other rectification for his side when the Director judges that the decision to make the call could well have been influenced by misinformation given to the player by an opponent. Failure to alert promptly where an alert is required by the Regulating Authority is deemed misinformation.
We get to the same result, and it doesn't seem that complicated but I'm always happier understanding which law I am applying.
#8
Posted 2024-July-24, 23:48
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#9
Posted 2024-July-25, 00:02
#10
Posted 2024-July-25, 09:19
#11
Posted 2024-July-27, 19:26
jillybean, on 2024-July-25, 00:02, said:
On the other hand, if you play an unusual system with lots of alertable bids, I think you need to be very attentive so you can alert promptly. In auctions that look routine to the opponents, they're not going to go out of their way to give you time to alert.
For instance, if you play Precision, and you open 1♣, your hand should already be on the Alert card because you know that most of partner's responses will be alertable.
#12
Posted 2024-July-28, 01:52
I also used the alert card for my partners 1nt opening to assist opponents who expect 15-17 , no announcement and then claim not to have heard mine.
#13
Posted 2024-July-28, 06:01
barmar, on 2024-July-27, 19:26, said:
For instance, if you play Precision, and you open 1♣, your hand should already be on the Alert card because you know that most of partner's responses will be alertable.
Hmmm. Playing f2f without screens, there's a very fine but important line between being ready to Alert and doing anything unusual with respect to the Alert card before partner calls. Having your hand already on it conveys clear UI to partner "Your next call is alertable (you do remember this convention, right?)".
#14
Posted 2024-July-28, 15:51
pescetom, on 2024-July-28, 06:01, said:
The only answer is to play on tablets, behind screens, in slippers.
Drones not permitted.
#15
Posted 2024-July-28, 17:28
pescetom, on 2024-July-28, 06:01, said:
Played Strong Club with transfer positives for 5 years. If partner Alerts my 1♣ opener, he hasn't forgotten that any of his bids are Alertable.
Play Keri for the last 12 years. After 1NT-2♣; again, if partner Alerted it, she's bidding 2♦, and that's Alertable...
But yes, you are absolutely correct.
(and I'm remembering my ruling - in a National event, no less! - that yes, 2♦ is Alertable after an XYZ 2♣ call, even if "I" alerted 2♣. For one thing, if the opponents don't ask, maybe you're playing some other 2♣ convention, where 2♦ is a natural response? For another, if they do ask, and even if they get a perfect response, who knows if they understood it?)
#16
Posted 2024-July-29, 10:59
mycroft, on 2024-July-28, 17:28, said:
But yes, you are absolutely correct.
(and I'm remembering my ruling - in a National event, no less! - that yes, 2♦ is Alertable after an XYZ 2♣ call, even if "I" alerted 2♣. For one thing, if the opponents don't ask, maybe you're playing some other 2♣ convention, where 2♦ is a natural response? For another, if they do ask, and even if they get a perfect response, who knows if they understood it?)
Sure, they might also not expect that 2♦ is NF, or that by bidding it as requested you deny a monster hand (if you play it that way).
Odd (or not) that you should hit on XYZ, because that is exactly what I was thinking about when I wrote the message above. When we started playing it, my partner struggled to consistently remember that we were in an XYZ situation. One day I congratulated him that it finally seemed to have become automatic and he replied "it's hard to miss really, I just look for you reaching towards the Alert card". Ouch.
#17
Posted 2024-July-29, 14:14
jillybean, on 2024-July-28, 01:52, said:
ACBL players who do not expect an announcement when someone opens 1NT are ignorant of the rules under which they are playing, perhaps willfully so.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#18
Posted 2024-July-30, 09:43
Which is fine, if they play against me and my ilk. Less so other people (perhaps including them, frankly!) who "only ask when they need to know" and whose partners guess really well afterwards. I will admit to "not enough" sympathy there :-).