[jillybean]

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Standard system, no xyz. Better players stress the importance of bidding your longest suit first, is this an exception?

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2025-January-27, 11:06, said:

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Standard system, no xyz. Better players stress the importance of bidding your longest suit first, is this an exception?

No, If you can bid your longest suit, do it.

As it is you are a passed hand, i.e. you can bid 2C.
Your plan is to bid 2C, floowed by 2H to show a 5+/4+ hand.

if you cant bid 2C, e.g. due to the fact that it would be gf (or what ever) you bid 1H,
but given that you can bid it, do it.

[jdiana]

P_Marlowe may be right but I think I would bid 1♥. We're trying to find the right strain and we might have a heart fit. If opener rebids 1♠, I can bid 2♣. I understand that I might be giving my partner the wrong idea about my shape and will probably never convince her that I have 6 clubs, but it seems right to proceed slowly when we don't yet know where we're going. (If I had two suits that could be bid on the same level, then I would of course bid the longer suit first.)

[Cyberyeti]

As I said in the other thread, I would have opened 1♣, but since I am a passed hand, partner won't go overboard if I bid 2♣ then 2♥ over 2♦ to show a near opening bid, 5+♣/4+♥.

[mikeh]

Jb. I can see that the question of long suit first is confusing.

There are subtle differences depending on style and agreements. For example, with 4M and 5+ diamonds and a 1C opener it was traditional to respond 1D regardless of strength (so long as you had responding values)

Some players still do this. Others, probably the majority of strong NA players using 2/1 or similar ‘natural’ methods prefer that one bypass diamonds to show the major unless one has substantial values. Some say bypass with invitational+, others (I’m very strongly a believer) require gf values in order to bid 1D then the major.

If you don’t bypass, then opener should bid up the line. 1C 1D 1H could be 3=4=3=3 as an example. The modern trend, which isn’t ‘new’, is for opener to rebid 1N with all balanced hands…which is unplayable if you are an up the line bidder.

So that’s the situation at the one level.

As for the 2 level, it comes down to how strong your hand is and how strong you play a 2/1 response

If you play 2/1 gf, then obviously you cannot respond 2/1 with less than gf values. Thus you would respond in your 4 card major at the one level…not to distort your shape but to avoid a gf bid on non gf values while still describing a salient feature. Couple this with xyz and you are usually going to be able to describe your shape and strength within a reasonable range, if the auction suggests doing so.

But if you have gf values then you should always bid your shape….1D 2C 2D 2S shows 4+ spades, longer clubs and gf values. Without those values, you’d respond 1S.

Ok, what about a passed hand, such as the one you gave?

First question. Is 2C forcing? No…it can’t be for reasons that should be obvious. Catch partner with Axx KJxx Kxxx Jx why on earth would he take another call opposite a passed hand 2C bid? What game is he aiming for?

Next question. As responder, with this hand, can you construct decent hands, that would pass 2C, where 4H is reasonable. Yes…I just gave you one. So bid 1H. If you buy a raise, bid game or make a game try. If not, then imo you’d be best off bidding 2C….sure you may miss a 4=4 heart fit but the auction may get very ugly if he rebids, say, 2D over 1H…you’re probably safe in 2D but 2C will usually be better.

That’s why, when I posted in response to your other thread, I chose 1H.

[Cyberyeti]

Mike, I think your answer is 100% correct for Jb, but if you play a weak NT, 2♣ is 100% forcing. I'd really not play 2♣ opposite a 3334 11 count (2N is a diamond raise, maybe it shouldn't be as a passed hand), and the hands you would pass are opened 1N not 1♦.

[P_Marlowe]

MikeH is certainly a better player, than I am.

The reason I recommend 2C is basically the N/B forum, I think N/B players should first learn to bid their longest suit.
This cannot be stressed enough.
If you have a heart fit, 1H will work out better, if you dont, 2C will lead to an easier auction / simpler contract.
The heart fit is also not completley buried after 2C, ..., if you get another chance, which may or may not be the case.
If you bid 1H, the club contract is basically ruled out, you may, depending on agreement still be able to play 3C, but this
req. add. agreements.

[jillybean]

I should have kept quiet and just said "I know I've been telling you that you must bid the shape of your hand properly, longest suit first, but this is an exception. You are a passed hand and when partner opened 1D, he likely denied clubs and your best chance of a fit is in hearts.
There are special methods to treat this type of hand, but for now, bid 1H."

P_Marlowe, on 2025-January-27, 15:27, said:

The reason I recommend 2C is basically the N/B forum, I think N/B players should first learn to bid their longest suit.
This cannot be stressed enough.

Marlowe, while I agree in principal, I think it's very detrimental to teach "rules" and omit the hands where you need to think and perhaps take a different action. Most newer players get so stuck on rules, we don't learn to think. They quote rules of.. as if they were written in the Laws of Duplicate Bridge.

[jdiana]

I think another important point for your beginners is to review which bids are forcing. You all can correct me if I'm wrong but, while a new suit by responder is ordinarily forcing, in this case, because responder is a passed hand, new suits are not forcing. So, neither 1♥ nor 2♣ is actually forcing. Though it would be unusual for opener to pass 1♥, he might choose to pass 2♣, as Mike says.

[thepossum]

Firstly anyone should be encouraged to open that hand
What is wrong with 1 heart over 1 diamond - passing and bidding later is always legit in some cases I guess

[P_Marlowe]

thepossum, on 2025-January-27, 22:34, said:

Firstly anyone should be encouraged to open that hand
What is wrong with 1 heart over 1 diamond - passing and bidding later is always legit in some cases I guess

The pros

#1 the suit is ok, if they have a fit, it will be spades, outbidding you, so showing where you live as fast as
possible is helpful
#2 you have no rebid problem

The cons:

Can you name one? I have taken the liberty to spell out the pros, now, you spell out the cons.

Given the pros I am neutral with regards to opening, but I guess on the table I would pass.

[bluenikki]

jdiana, on 2025-January-27, 19:59, said:

...it would be unusual for opener to pass 1♥

Why?

I would think it normal for opener to pass with 3=3=4=3 if the opening was lead-directional with less than opening strength.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2025-January-27, 19:28, said:

I should have kept quiet and just said "I know I've been telling you that you must bid the shape of your hand properly, longest suit first, but this is an exception. You are a passed hand and when partner opened 1D, he likely denied clubs and your best chance of a fit is in hearts.
There are special methods to treat this type of hand, but for now, bid 1H."



Marlowe, while I agree in principal, I think it's very detrimental to teach "rules" and omit the hands where you need to think and perhaps take a different action. Most newer players get so stuck on rules, we don't learn to think. They quote rules of.. as if they were written in the Laws of Duplicate Bridge.

There are rules and there are principles. The principle to start bidding your longest suit first is a cornerstone of
most natural bidding systems. You fiddel at those at your peril.
I agree, beginners get to hears lotss of rules, feeling overwelmed, and quite often lots of them are cited incomplete,
making them useless / dangerous, and they would be better served, never having heard of them.

Back to the hand: MikeH recommends 1H, because his assesment is, that the chances of reaching game or a higher
scoring partial (majors beat minors) outweight the risk of ending up in a worse partial, compared to starting with 2C.
This is ok. I disagree with his assesment (*), but I have been wrong before, and I will be in the future, and he is the
stronger player.
The main issue I have with recommending 1H on this hand is, that the next time we will tell the B/I to start with his longest
suit. If you want to teach consistent major first approach, go ahead do it, but it comes with lots of baggage.

Another point: yes players should start to think, but they need to learn first what to think about, which points to take into
consideration, to make thinking worth while, otherwise it is just a waste of time.

(*) A point not yet mentioned, even if you discover a heart fit, the play may not be simple and req. a certain amount of
planning ahead to get the order correct. The hand MikeH gave is not prime, but she has some key features that make 4H odds on.
Those featurest may be with the odds, or not, a simulation can tell you this. A worse hand may req. a higher degree of card play,
to give you a shot a making 4H or scoreing better than 2C.

[jdiana]

bluenikki, on 2025-January-28, 05:52, said:

Why?

I would think it normal for opener to pass with 3=3=4=3 if the opening was lead-directional with less than opening strength.

Unusual IMO, not impossible. I guess I was just projecting my own behavior - I would generally strain to bid again after a one-level response. But my openings are sound.

[thepossum]

 P_Marlowe, on 2025-January-28, 05:25, said:

The cons:

Can you name one? I have taken the liberty to spell out the pros, now, you spell out the cons.

I am leaving expert comment to others 🙂 but I do see the argument for non forcing 2C after passing

But I would have opened a club. Decent enough suit by itself

At the worst I bale out in 2 clubs

[P_Marlowe]

thepossum, on 2025-January-29, 15:14, said:

I am leaving expert comment to others �� but I do see the argument for non forcing 2C after passing

But I would have opened a club. Decent enough suit by itself

At the worst I bale out in 2 clubs

The problem is the hand MikeH gave, majors reversed:
What do you expect partner to do with a weak NT opening hand, in case you dont hit a 44 fit in
the majors? He will bid 3NT over your 2C rebid.
With only 12 he may just invite, but with 13-14 he will bid it. Most of the time 3NT will be lousy.
And this is not an unrealistic scenario.