[jillybean]

A hand from my game, I didn't play it.

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Step1. 4♣ will confirm clubs and invite partner to start a cue bidding sequence?

[mikeh]

A useful principle is that a voluntary 4m is always forcing

Not all 4m bids are. Say (3S) x (P). Now 4m is just trying to survive


But (2S) x (P) 4m should, imo, be forcing

Makes game and slam bidding MUCH easier at the modest cost of being unable to stop on a dime

[jillybean]

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This is beyond the experience of these players who have only heard about cue bidding.
It's tricky enough for regular, experienced partnerships. For those who play kickback how do you unravel the diamond cue & kickback?

5♦ shows 3/0 so we are missing a red Ace or club K, I think the wrong hand initiated KC

edit, so the problem here is that once we start cue bidding, we simply keep on cue bidding until we run out of cue bids.
The correct partner needs to take control and initiate keycard.
South initiated the slam try with 4♣ but can't be the one to use KC

[jillybean]

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[mike777]

4D is always kickback here, you asked 😊

4NT shows void in D. Not ace or King!

Side note on these jump rebids I really strain to have shortness. Seems to really help in the bidding.

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2025-February-02, 20:31, said:

4D is always kickback here

4NT shows void in D. Not ace or King!

Good to know !
This pair are not playing Kickback.

[jillybean]

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North has no way of knowing which missing Ace partner has?

[smerriman]

jillybean, on 2025-February-02, 20:53, said:

North has no way of knowing which missing Ace partner has?

Then they should probably keep cuebidding rather than using keycard at all. As it turns out it doesn't matter; you want to be in 6♣ whichever ace it is. But if South holds the ♥Q, then finding out is the difference between small and grand..

[jillybean]

smerriman, on 2025-February-02, 22:23, said:

Then they should probably keep cuebidding rather than using keycard at all. As it turns out it doesn't matter; you want to be in 6♣ whichever ace it is. But if South holds the ♥Q, then finding out is the difference between small and grand..

Yes, always 6 but if partner has spade Ace, grand is a possibility
I would never find the heart Q in this auction, or any auction where hearts wasn’t trump

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

What is wrong with 3H? 3C does not deny a 3 card heart suit, yes you have a 6-4 club fit,
but majors still rule the MP scoring. 3H is forcing and gives p room to describe his hand.
If there is no slam, you are happy to play 4H instead of 5C.

Keep it simple.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jillybean]

By bidding 3H we may get to the better game but we are giving up on a club slam.
We know that there is a 10+ card club fit.
Isn't 3H masterminding?

[jillybean]

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Seeing both hands, I can bid KC here and get to slam but I am not convinced that I would do this at the table.
What's the expert take on this?

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2025-February-03, 07:46, said:

By bidding 3H we may get to the better game but we are giving up on a club slam.
We know that there is a 10+ card club fit.
Isn't 3H masterminding?

Game before Slam.

Even setting hearts as trumps, does not stop you from suggesting to play a club slam
later on in the auction. You could always jump to 6C, which is an offer to play.

[mw64ahw]

If partner voluntarily takes you to 4♣ bypassing 3N then I try for the slam. You still have the issue of 2 potential losers in a suit which is why I show keycards rather than ask. So 4♦ for even and anything else odd with a control.

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2025-February-03, 08:53, said:

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Seeing both hands, I can bid KC here and get to slam but I am not convinced that I would do this at the table.
What's the expert take on this?

I'm more likely to bid the unmakeable grand than not bid 6, MPs you want to be in 6♥ which is difficult playing what you play, I have methods for the "death hand".

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2025-February-03, 08:53, said:

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Seeing both hands, I can bid KC here and get to slam but I am not convinced that I would do this at the table.
What's the expert take on this?

The Ace of diamonds is basically useless, i.e. KC wont help, if you get the answer 1KC.
You still have a spade looser, and the heart cue from p does not mean, your 2 loosers in heart are gone.
It is not often spoken about, but a nice treatment to play, make the first cue honor based, this would mean,
that you cant bid 4D, you have to bid either 4H or 4S.
Now 4H is murky, it could still be constructed as an offer to play, 4S is a cue, but kills a lot of space.

[Cyberyeti]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-February-03, 09:30, said:

The Ace of diamonds is basically useless, i.e. KC wont help, if you get the answer 1KC.
You still have a spade looser, and the heart cue from p does not mean, your 2 loosers in heart are gone.
It is not often spoken about, but a nice treatment to play, make the first cue honor based, this would mean,
that you cant bid 4D, you have to bid either 4H or 4S.
Now 4H is murky, it could still be constructed as an offer to play, 4S is a cue, but kills a lot of space.

A♦ is a known parking place for the 3rd heart, given that partner has the K, so if he has <3 spades or the J or the ♥Q, slam is good, if not it may be 50:50.

[mw64ahw]

jillybean, on 2025-February-03, 07:46, said:

By bidding 3H we may get to the better game but we are giving up on a club slam.
We know that there is a 10+ card club fit.
Isn't 3H masterminding?

I have a system tweak which looks to find the major suit fit too so you have the choice. I play this in a TW context, but I guess it works with natural 1M bids too.
2♦ intermediate 3/4 card raise or natural reverse
2M natural raise
2oM natural reverse
2N 6+♣ strong, 6+♣3M, 4M GF
3♣ 6+♣ intermediate
3M 4M invitational

In this case the bid will be 2N with the reply 3♦ as GF asking for shape. Now 3M shows 6+♣3M and you have your choice of where to go.