[jillybean]

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[smerriman]

2♠ should be an artificial way to start forcing here (since partner has denied having 4 of them).

[mike777]

 smerriman, on 2025-July-13, 17:06, said:

2♠ should be an artificial way to start forcing here (since partner has denied having 4 of them).

Excellent

Hard one.

[jillybean]

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I agree 2S going forward but why should it be artificial? We may have 45 or better distribution

[smerriman]

Sure - artificial doesn't mean you're denying spade length, just that partner should be aware you're not promising it (which is safe, because you're not worried about them raising).

[jillybean]

smerriman, on 2025-July-13, 17:37, said:

Sure - artificial doesn't mean you're denying spade length, just that partner should be aware you're not promising it (which is safe, because you're not worried about them raising).

Ok thanks for clarifying

[WasWinM]

 smerriman, on 2025-July-13, 17:37, said:

Sure - artificial doesn't mean you're denying spade length, just that partner should be aware you're not promising it (which is safe, because you're not worried about them raising).

What else do you bid when 56 in the majors and why can’t partner raise with 3 card support? If he did, what would it mean?

[WasWinM]

 smerriman, on 2025-July-13, 17:37, said:

Sure - artificial doesn't mean you're denying spade length, just that partner should be aware you're not promising it (which is safe, because you're not worried about them raising).

What else do you bid when 56 in the majors and why can’t partner raise with 3 card support? If he did, what would it mean?

[smerriman]

WasWinM, on 2025-July-13, 19:48, said:

What else do you bid when 56 in the majors and why can’t partner raise with 3 card support? If he did, what would it mean?

Why do I need to bid something else? 2♠ then 3♠ over partner's rebid seems to convey that pretty easily. With 2N, 3♣, 3♦, and 3♥ all available for partner, I can't really see them wanting to bid a 3 card spade suit when I may not even have them myself.

As for what to do over 2N.. no idea, I always get a bit lost when a natural 2NT bid comes in. There's probably something more scientific than choosing between 4N and 6N..

[WasWinM]

Occasionally, a 4-3 fit is the best game contract and why not raise spades when it’s known to be 3?
There is no doubt 2s can and sometimes should be bid with 3, but there’s no good reason to classify it as artificial.

[Stephen Tu]

WasWinM, on 2025-July-13, 20:29, said:

Occasionally, a 4-3 fit is the best game contract and why not raise spades when it's known to be 3?

Because it's very space consuming to raise to 3s, and opener having 3s is almost never of interest to the 2s bidder. The 2s bidder is usually looking for heart support, looking for a club stopper, or doing this as a prelude to making a forcing raise of diamonds which is much nicer at 3d below 3nt than having to bid 4d.
Spades in a 4-3 fit is the least likely game, really microscopic probability, you'd want to play in after this start, and maybe you can grope for it later if necessary.
If responder is 5-6, they can always bid 3s on the third round then opener can raise.

[mikeh]

Stephen’s post is spot on. 5=6 gf hands can look after themselves by rebidding 3S. Opener is never bidding beyond 3H on his third turn, so responder can always pattern out.

Meanwhile, compare 2S and the alternative of 3C as a potentially artificial gf call by responder. 2S is clearly preferable. Opener can bid 2N….try doing that over 3C!

As it is, after 1D 1H 2D 2S 2N, responder can and imo should bid 3D. We’d all show diamond support if we held Jxx and QJ has to be at least as good, and usually better, than Jxx in terms of solidifying opener’s suit. Consider AKxxxx opposite Jxx or QJ. Give me QJ every time.

[DavidKok]

Let's recap.

Over 1♥, opener failed to bid 1♠, 1NT, 2♣ or 2♥. They therefore have fewer than 4 spades, clubs, hearts and not a balanced hand. What's left is 11-14 with 6(+)♦.
Personally I raise hearts with an unbalanced hand and a 3-card suit here, but this is far from universal. Let's assume we don't have that inference.

2♠ now establishes a game force and asks for more information. Over this partner bids 2NT. In particular, not 3♦ or 3♥. Therefore partner has exactly 6 diamonds and at most 2 hearts.
So we know partner to hold an 11-14 '3=2=6=3 minus a non-diamond card'.
There is one more question: what would 3♣ over 2♠ have shown? Probably 3 clubs, but does it also show weakness in spades? Does 2NT promise strength in both black suits? I think this is ambiguous for a lot of partnerships.

Anyway, we should bid 3♦ now to confirm the fit. Give partner something like ♠Kxx, ♥x, ♦AKxxxx, ♣Kxx and we've got chances at 7♦, though that is a perfect near-maximum. Realistically we should probe for 6.

[Cyberyeti]

smerriman, on 2025-July-13, 17:06, said:

2♠ should be an artificial way to start forcing here (since partner has denied having 4 of them).

We actually use 2♥, but yes, you need a bid for this, Bourke style relays are an important addition to the arsenal when partner rebids their minor suit.

[mike777]

Yes 3D now over 2NT.

However at MP this board is so weakening us and sapping our strength, draining our energy, it is our Kryptonite.

It is slowing killing us.
☹️ ☹️

[jillybean]

Ready for the full hand? you can critique south's bidding

[WasWinM]

 Stephen Tu, on 2025-July-13, 22:20, said:

Because it's very space consuming to raise to 3s, and opener having 3s is almost never of interest to the 2s bidder. The 2s bidder is usually looking for heart support, looking for a club stopper, or doing this as a prelude to making a forcing raise of diamonds which is much nicer at 3d below 3nt than having to bid 4d.
Spades in a 4-3 fit is the least likely game, really microscopic probability, you'd want to play in after this start, and maybe you can grope for it later if necessary.
If responder is 5-6, they can always bid 3s on the third round then opener can raise.

It’s more space consuming to have to rebid spades at the 3-level to show they are real. If opener raises with 3-card support, responder should know enough about openers hand to place the contract. (he wouldn’t raise just because he holds 3 but because his hand suggests it as the best bid.) If he raises with 3 and happens to catch partner 56 then the suit is set. He doesn’t have to raise with 3, but it makes more sense to assume the 2s bid is spades and not automatically artificial, though at times it may not be a real second suit. It creates a game force either way.

[Stephen Tu]

WasWinM, on 2025-July-14, 06:49, said:

It's more space consuming to have to rebid spades at the 3-level to show they are real. If opener raises with 3-card support, responder should know enough about openers hand to place the contract. (he wouldn't raise just because he holds 3 but because his hand suggests it as the best bid.) If he raises with 3 and happens to catch partner 56 then the suit is set. He doesn't have to raise with 3, but it makes more sense to assume the 2s bid is spades and not automatically artificial, though at times it may not be a real second suit. It creates a game force either way.

5-6 hands are a tiny subset of responder's possible hands. On every other hand opener is taking up space to show useless information, and preventing responder from showing diamond support at 3 level, 6+ heart without 5 spades at 3 level GF, both of which are far more common.

Also, if responder does have 5-6, what advantage have you gained after 1d-1h-2s-3s-?, vs 1d-1h-2s-2nt-3s-4s-? ?. With the 5-6 hand you usually just bid 4s, so you haven't gained anything vs us passing 4s on our auction. You can't effectively utilize the extra room for cue-bidding, because spades haven't been agreed as the trump suit yet on the first auction (responder's 4d and 4h must be natural, as most systems didn't have the ability to make forcing 3d or 3h calls on the round previous). The suit *is not set*, as you claim, because only responder knows a trump fit has definitely been found, not opener, because of all of the far more numerous non-56xx hand types. So you haven't found an advantage vs us bidders who agree at the 4s level.

Now if you wanted to have 3s raise show exactly say something like 3-1 majors, and no club stopper, I suppose I could get on board with that, but in no way should it be routinely bid with any 3262/3-1-6-3 w/ something in clubs.

[jillybean]

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[WasWinM]

 Stephen Tu, on 2025-July-14, 07:25, said:

5-6 hands are a tiny subset of responder's possible hands. On every other hand opener is taking up space to show useless information, and preventing responder from showing diamond support at 3 level, 6+ heart without 5 spades at 3 level GF, both of which are far more common.

Also, if responder does have 5-6, what advantage have you gained after 1d-1h-2s-3s-?, vs 1d-1h-2s-2nt-3s-4s-? ?. With the 5-6 hand you usually just bid 4s, so you haven't gained anything vs us passing 4s on our auction. You can't effectively utilize the extra room for cue-bidding, because spades haven't been agreed as the trump suit yet on the first auction (responder's 4d and 4h must be natural, as most systems didn't have the ability to make forcing 3d or 3h calls on the round previous). The suit *is not set*, as you claim, because only responder knows a trump fit has definitely been found, not opener, because of all of the far more numerous non-56xx hand types. So you haven't found an advantage vs us bidders who agree at the 4s level.

Now if you wanted to have 3s raise show exactly say something like 3-1 majors, and no club stopper, I suppose I could get on board with that, but in no way should it be routinely bid with any 3262/3-1-6-3 w/ something in clubs.

I don’t “want” 3S to “mean” anything but “partner, this bid best describes my hand”. It caters to an exchange of information to try to find the best contract. If responder bids 4D over 3S it becomes obvious 2s was an advance cue bid for diamonds.

I see this as a choice of styles, one side preferring a bidding style based on captaincy while the other side looks for an exchange of information.