[SandyLie]

Hi !

Can somebody, please, advise a system or convention for the following situation within 2/1.

after 2/1 partner confirms openers major on 2 or 3 level

example: 1♠ pass 2♣ pass 2♦ pass 2♠ o r
1♠pass 2♣ pass 2♥ pass 3♥

What strength should opener/partner have to show slam interest and how should he do it (cuebid, baby blackwood .....) and how he should deny slam interest and not jump to 4 immediatelly. Is there a system or convention that solves this?

Thanks

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

there is one usefull convention called
"Serious 3 NT".
Simply said: if a mayor suit fit is found
and the partnership is in a gameforcing
situation, 3NT is never to play.
3NT simply shows add. values.

If a player makes a bid bypassing 3NT,
he denies those add. values.

Make a search on "Serious 3 NT", you will
find several threads regarding this topic.

It is also possible to play "Frivoloius 3NT",
i.e. a 3NT bid denies add. values.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Regarding your sample auction
- It is unclear, if 2S already showed a fit,
because, it maybe possible, that the bid was
made on 2 cards
If 3S was bid instread of 2S, 3NT would clearly
be "Serious 3NT"
- In this auction 3NT would be "Serious", 3S would
simply show a spade cue, but 3S does not say
anything about strength.

[kenrexford]

Showing slam interest at this level is relatively easy -- you by definition have slam interest. To explain, consider a simple, apparently minimum layout:

♠AKxxx ♥Axx ♦xx ♣Qxx opposite

♠Qxx ♥xxx ♦Ax ♣AKxxx

13 opposite 13, no substantial distribution, and yet slam is a good bet. Change the club secondary fit to 4-4, and the same results occur, so long as clubs are trumps.

The point is that all hands with game-force established have slam potential if the honors fit well and if the slightest distributional fit alswo is productive.

For this reason, I would suggest using a sophisticated cuebidding appoach to start the next phase of the auction, with Serious 3NT and Last Train to Clarksville. After a few cuebids, you should discover whether this overall fit is present, or not, and then make that decision, slam or no slam.

The classic 2/1 approach seems to have been quantitative, with Fast Arrival showing "weakness." That older approach seems too tied to HCP's and not to pattern fit. As you can see from the two examples, dead minimums fitting well produce slam, without much in the way of distribution. Thus, the myth of the "minimum" is the problem with many missed slams.

[hrothgar]

Hi Sandy

I doubt that you're going to find many such unambiguous sequences. Most systems prioritize exploring for the best game above looking for slam. Accordingly, most low level auctions focus on strain and level rather than searching for slam. (Equally significant, this same information is often very useful in evaluating slam). You can certainly point to individual auctions where one player or another was clearly starting slam exploration at a low level, however, the same sequence could be used for a game try.

I suspect that the closest example would be auction sequences after a forcing major suit raise (consider auctions like 1♠ - 2NT). A Jacoby 2NT raise typically sets strain and commits the partnership to game. Accordingly, the rest of the auction focuses on slam. In similar fashion, it could be argued that opener's rebids after a natural limit raise (thing 1♠ - 3♠) also focuses on on slam...

[inquiry]

Hi Sandy,

As pointed out by all but one posters above, the situation you described has given rise to a convention known as serious 3NT (along with last train to clarksville, or LTTC). You can read about these in an article by Fred Gitelman on "improving 2/1 GF"

See this link http://www.bridgebas...cles/index.html

Basically, after you find a major fit in a GF situation, then the agreement is you will play in the major. This frees up 3NT as a bid to show "serious" slam interest, you cuebid controls without serious interest incase partner is serious. Read Fred's article.

Welcome to the BBO Bridge Forums. We hopeyou come back again.

Ben

[mike777]

Hi Sandy and welcome to the forums.

No one has mention a few of the obvious things while they have discussed the extremely complicated issues you bring up.

This may be obvious to you but I will repeat them. For me both of these auctions in 2/1 are clear slam tries. They are not looking for best game in a suit or nt etc....I repeat this since I see many many players on BBO who say they play 2/1 but seem to have no idea what to do after the start in your example hands.

Yes that means:
1s=2c
2d=2s=strong slam try in spades, it is not showing some other random hand with 2 spades or something!


While fancy stuff like serious 3nt and even more rarely LTTC (Last Train) have theoritical advantages they are seldom needed except on the rare newspaper hand.

In your example hands if you have an Ace just cuebid it. If you have no aces and a rock bottom hand feel free to sign off in game. On the hands when you have extra's but no Ace try and cuebid a K. I would advice to not cuebid shortness in partner's long suit at first.

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Jul 24 2006, 09:30 PM, said:

This may be obvious to you but I will repeat them. For me both of these auctions in 2/1 are clear slam tries.  They are not looking for best game in a suit or nt etc....I repeat this since I see many many players on BBO who say they play 2/1 but seem to have no idea what to do after the start in your example hands.

Yes that means:
1s=2c
2d=2s=strong slam try in spades, it is not showing some other random hand with 2 spades or something!

So, what does partner rebid after 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦ holding

♠ KQ2
♥ xx
♦ xxx
♣ AQJ53

[mike777]

hrothgar, on Jul 24 2006, 01:37 PM, said:

mike777, on Jul 24 2006, 09:30 PM, said:

This may be obvious to you but I will repeat them. For me both of these auctions in 2/1 are clear slam tries.  They are not looking for best game in a suit or nt etc....I repeat this since I see many many players on BBO who say they play 2/1 but seem to have no idea what to do after the start in your example hands.

Yes that means:
1s=2c
2d=2s=strong slam try in spades, it is not showing some other random hand with 2 spades or something!

So, what does partner rebid after 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦ holding

♠ KQ2
♥ xx
♦ xxx
♣ AQJ53

4S, not 2s, assuming you wish to force to game with this hand.
I start with 1nt if this hand is only worth 3 card limit raise in one's style.

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Jul 24 2006, 09:39 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Jul 24 2006, 01:37 PM, said:

mike777, on Jul 24 2006, 09:30 PM, said:

This may be obvious to you but I will repeat them. For me both of these auctions in 2/1 are clear slam tries.  They are not looking for best game in a suit or nt etc....I repeat this since I see many many players on BBO who say they play 2/1 but seem to have no idea what to do after the start in your example hands.

Yes that means:
1s=2c
2d=2s=strong slam try in spades, it is not showing some other random hand with 2 spades or something!

So, what does partner rebid after 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦ holding

♠ KQ2
♥ xx
♦ xxx
♣ AQJ53

4S, not 2s, assuming you wish to force to game with this hand.
I start with 1nt if this hand is only worth 3 card limit raise in one's style.

Would you chose the same 4♣ rebid with

♠ AQx
♥ xx
♦ xx
♣ AKJTxx

[mike777]

This second hand is much better, 2s is fine now. See how partner will think you have spades and club values and some slam interest, but on Richard's first hand example partner will think you have spades and clubs and a dead minimum which you do have.

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Jul 24 2006, 09:50 PM, said:

This second hand is much better, 2s is fine now. See how partner will think you have spades and club values and some slam interest, but on Richard's first hand example partner will think you have spades and clubs and a dead minimum which you do have.

An alternative theory is that the space-intensive jump to 4S should show a very specific hand type, while the cheap, low level 2♠ rebid is used to temporize with hands that are unsuitable for a picture jump...

[mike777]

Richard as usual makes an excellent point, they are called Picture bids. Al Roth is a big fan of these as I think Marshall Miles is. See their books to decide which method you prefer. Most players play Fast arrival is weakest but it does not mean other methods such as Picture bids or slow arrival cannot win also.