[microcap]

You and your favorite partner are dealt:

Scoring: IMP

---

Can you reach the best game of 4 spades with a reasonable auction?

To entertain you, both pairs [one SAYC, one precision] reached 3NT. And both made it, when both defenses blocked the club suit!!

It was Rex's fault of course....

[Echognome]

Nope. With my favorite partners and my favorite systems, the auction would be:

1♠(1) - 2♣(2)
3NT(3) - Pass

(1)10-15, 5+ spades
(2)Invitational values, <3 spades
(3)5332 max

or

A similar auction starting with a 1♥ opening showing 4+ spades.

[P_Marlowe]

No.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[DrTodd13]

Pass (14+) - 1♥ (one or both majors, 8-10)
1♠ (relay) - 2♥ (4♥,5+♦)
2♠ (relay) - 3♣ (♠,♣ equal length)
3♦ (relay) - 3♥ (2452)
3 or 4♠ depending on whether you want to invite. If you bid 3♠ to invite then pd will bid 4.

Want to switch to my system?

[microcap]

I don't, but Rex will be intrigued no doubt! As long as you get to alert every bid, he will be happy!

[DrTodd13]

Ooops...just realized that after 3♥ I can't bid 3♠ as invite since it is the next step and would be a relay. If pd shows 2♠ I'm going to bid 4♠ with the secondary ♦ fit. If partner doesn't show 2♠ then he'll have 6 or 7♦ and then I'm bidding 4 or 5♦.

You might want to specify what systems you are interested in or you are going to get a lot of answers from systems that don't interest you at all.

[Echognome]

DrTodd13, on Jul 11 2007, 02:02 PM, said:

Pass (14+) - 1♥ (one or both majors, 8-10)
1♠ (relay) - 2♥ (4♥,5+♦)
2♠ (relay) - 3♣ (♠,♣ equal length)
3♦ (relay) - 3♥ (2452)
3 or 4♠ depending on whether you want to invite. If you bid 3♠ to invite then pd will bid 4.

Want to switch to my system?

I ran a sample of hands for 8-10 and 2=4=5=2 with none of the spade honors opposite.

Jx QJxx Txxxx Ax
Jx Kxxx KJxxx xx
Jx KQT9 Txxxx Ax
Ax Jxxx KTxxx Qx
xx JTxx KTxxx Ax
xx QJxx JTxxx KQ
xx KQxx KJxxx xx
Jx KJxx Txxxx Ax

For most of these hands, I would not want to be in 4♠. Of course I wouldn't want to be in game at all. I do think that spades is going to be a better spot than 3NT, if you know responder's shape.

[DrTodd13]

If pd doesn't have SA then I know we're in trouble on a club lead in 3N. Pd could have CAK but playing him for that is anti-percentage. The ST is a big card here in a ♠ contract.

[gwnn]

i'm just lucky enough to say N would open strong ♣ and then

1♣-1♠ strong; GF with hearts
1NT-2♥ relay; longer diamonds than hearts
2♠-3♣ relay; 5422 or 7411
3♦-3♠ relay; MINIMUM 5422

and here opener usually says

"whooah i have xx over 2 cards and they'll lead through partner's holding! then 3NT is right only if

-partner has AK or AQ doubleton with K onside
-partner has Ax or Kx doubleton with A onside AND we can take 8 fast tricks
-they don't lead clubs (a little unlikely)

let's move to 4♠ then!"

admittedly he might try 5♦, but not that likely as he knows about the scarce hcp situation.

Note the key here: in both DrTodd and my sequence opener held the "strong" hand type of 14+/15+ points. Make spades KJT9x and I would end up in the same wrong contract as you (probably). I suspect the same problem would occur in his bidding also with 13 opposite 12 for example cause 12 can't force to game opposite 9-13 (or some such).

Bad hands will occur as long as good hands will. C'est la vie.

[awm]

Elianna and I would have the following nice auction:

1♠(1) - 2♦(2)
3♦(3) - 3♥(4)
3♠(5) - 4♠(6)

(1) We have the choice of openings with this shape; good spades and aces outside make 1♠ a more likely opening than 1nt (2♠ likely better than 1nt if partial is the limit, 3nt likely better from pd's side when it's right).

(2) Standard american; good 10 hcp++, not always GF

(3) Shows extras, any rebid past 2♠ guarantees game values in our style

(4) Control showing

(5) Shows good spades; could be six spades or five nice ones w/o a club stop

(6) May as well...

[mike777]

microcap, on Jul 11 2007, 04:43 PM, said:

You and  your favorite partner are dealt:

<!-- NORTHSOUTH begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> North </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> None </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> KQ10xx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> Axx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> AQx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> xx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> Ax </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> KQxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> Jxxxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> Jx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- NORTHSOUTH end -->

Can you reach the best game of 4 spades with a reasonable auction?

To entertain you, both pairs [one SAYC, one precision] reached 3NT.  And both made it, when both defenses blocked the club suit!!

It was Rex's fault of course....   

This really has the feel of double dummy bidding but maybe:
1s!=1nt(semiforce, yes that means partner may pass)
2d=3d(good invite)
3h=3s
4s?=p

1s=not 1nt with small xx in clubs and 5 good spades.
3h=stopper
3s=stopper
4s? we belong in some game, maybe partner has Ax of spades?

[the hog]

Can anyone get to 4S if Nth makes the 1NT opening many of us would make? I tried this a few ways and at the table I would end up in 3NT if I am honest about it.

[mikeh]

mike777, on Jul 11 2007, 05:45 PM, said:

microcap, on Jul 11 2007, 04:43 PM, said:

You and  your favorite partner are dealt:

<!-- NORTHSOUTH begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> North </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> None </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> KQ10xx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> Axx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> AQx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> xx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> Ax </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> KQxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> Jxxxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> Jx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- NORTHSOUTH end -->

Can you reach the best game of 4 spades with a reasonable auction?

To entertain you, both pairs [one SAYC, one precision] reached 3NT.  And both made it, when both defenses blocked the club suit!!

It was Rex's fault of course....   

This really has the feel of double dummy bidding but maybe:
1s!=1nt(semiforce, yes that means partner may pass)
2d=3d(good invite)
3h=3s
4s?=p

1s=not 1nt with small xx in clubs and 5 good spades.
3h=stopper
3s=stopper
4s? we belong in some game, maybe partner has Ax of spades?

I agree with the double dummy feeling

Apart from the fact that it wouldn't occur to me to open 1S with this 1N opening hand, most would play that 3♥ is patterning out: showing game-acceptance values and suggesting a moysian (or 5-3) ♥ fit as well as showing a stiff ♣.

KQ10xx AJx AKxx x is protypical for the sequence... on the actual hand, there is no excuse for bidding 3♠ as South... if you are running from diamonds (why?), run to hearts, not spades.

I wonder, amongst those who open 1♠, how many are influenced by the knowledge that this is a problem hand for 1N? I suspect that most strong notrumpers would open 1N at the table... and, frankly, I think it to be an error not to.... really, what is your rebid after a forcing 1N? Does anyone really think that the sequence 1♠ 1N 2minor (whatever your systemic poison is... mine is 2♣ since 2♦ shows 4+) is a better description on hand type than opening 1N?

And, remember, that 1N is the most common response to 1♠ opening bids...so you can't argue that this problem is low frequency.

[mike777]

Yes it does feel a bit double dummy but.
1) 1spade is forced with 5 spades and xx of clubs. Partners have made it clear they want me to open one spade and not 1nt with this hand type. btw as a sidebar I agree that 1s=1nt=2d=? can be very messy with less than an invite hand for responder and opener having a very very wide range. IF opener is at the very top of her range she is forced to find some rebid over responder's signoff. Messy.
2) Right or wrong with that responder hand I would always bid 3s over 3H. I would mean it as a search for game, first, showing a stopper, cuebid in support of D second. I am not running from diamonds, I am searching for the best game and trying to show my stoppers for 3nt. If this is incorrect thinking and bidding, fair enough but I would have done it.
3) 3H by partner may very well be pattern bidding but I do think it promises a stopper, not xxx of hearts.
4) With MikeH example north hand, knowing how often my partners bid kickback, I bet that is what they would do over 3s. Note 3d is a good invite not a junky raise.


Just to expand on point two:
1) assuming we have agreed a minor as here.
2) we are under 3nt.
3) it is far from clear that we are in a slam auction, meaning we are looking for best game still.
4) I thought showing stoppers is our first priority?

[bhall]

This is a 1♠ opening in Minotaur; it would open 1N with another J, but not another Q (when it would be good enough to raise a 1N response to 2N). So,

1♠ - 4 or 5♠, unbalanced if only 4
2♦ - 11+, natural, promises another bid over 2M
2♥ - exactly 5♠ without 4♥ or 4♦
2N - natural invitation without 3♠
3♦ - accepting the invitation, showing 3-card support
3♥ - high card(s) in ♥
3♠ - nothing in ♣
4♠ - High honor-x, choice of games
P

Exchange the ♣J and a small ♣ between opener and responder, and we would open 1N, never finding ♠. Or we might choose to open 1♠ and pass the 1N response. It is also fortuitous that responder's concentration is in a side suit that can be shown below 3N, so that the weakness is discovered. No panacea here.

[kenrexford]

1NT-2♣-2♠-3NT for me also.

[Codo]

1 ♠ 2 ♦ (we play weak NT, so 1 Spade ,2 Diamond 11+)
3 ♦ 3 ♥ (14+ GF) (Control, but nothing in Club OR too strong for 3 NT)
3 ♠ (no club control)

So far it is easy. Maybe pd will bid 4 Spade now and we can stop then. Maybe he/me will bid a lazy 5 Diamond and we will fail.

[MarceldB]

DrTodd13, on Jul 12 2007, 12:11 AM, said:

Ooops...just realized that after 3♥ I can't bid 3♠ as invite since it is the next step and would be a relay.  If pd shows 2♠ I'm going to bid 4♠ with the secondary ♦ fit.  If partner doesn't show 2♠ then he'll have 6 or 7♦ and then I'm bidding 4 or 5♦.

6-card♦ seems to me impossible after the 3♣ bid, because the blacks are equal of length.

Furthermore:
what is the benefit of giving a relay after the 3♣ bid?
96,43% it is the 2=4=5=2 instead of 1=4=7=1 / 0=4=9=0

or will it not be possible by giving NOT a relay but f.e. a stopper/control or an invite bid, that RR can describe afterwards his extreme shape?

[gwnn]

usually 9400's are not included in tables.

(sorry for being slightly off-topic)