[dboxley]

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I know this is elementary but I am teaching someone who won't listen (and maybe I am wrong). What does S have?

[mgoetze]

About 5+ diamonds, 4+ hearts, 2+ spades (prolly with honor if only 2) and 17+ points.

[mtvesuvius]

mgoetze, on 2010-November-16, 19:30, said:

About 5+ diamonds, 4+ hearts, 2+ spades (prolly with honor if only 2) and 17+ points.

Sounds about right. Pattern bid, usually 3451 or such.

[Hanoi5]

I bet there's a case for it showing a cue-bid after agreeing diamonds? I mean, wouldn't responder deny having 5 spades (or interest in spades) when s/he bids 3♦?

I also think it's a pattern showing bid, but I'd certainly have doubts at the table.

[mgoetze]

Hanoi5, on 2010-November-16, 19:49, said:

I bet there's a case for it showing a cue-bid after agreeing diamonds? I mean, wouldn't responder deny having 5 spades (or interest in spades) when s/he bids 3♦?

I also think it's a pattern showing bid, but I'd certainly have doubts at the table.

I think it's more important to show 4 diamond cards than just 1 spade card at responder's 2nd bid, especially now that opener has shown a big hand with real diamonds.

Nevertheless, 4♠ might still easily be our best game, especially if we're playing matchpoints. There is still plenty of room to investigate a diamond slam if responder now continues with 4♣ or 4♦.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

We have a fit and in a GF situation - I assume Lebensohl / whatever is in
place..

For us this would be a cue, but a first cue in partners suit showes honors,
in the given seq. the cue does not deny heart honors, opener decided, that
the top spade honor is a more valuable information for responder (*).

The meaning of 3S is partially dependent on the meaning of 2S by responder,
instead of the 3D bid, in N/A 2S would show 5+ spades and forcing.
Playing that way the 3D besides showing the fit, should also deny 5 spades,
or at least it should deny interest in playing with spades as trumps,
if you follow this logic, you dont need 3S as showing secondary support, ...,
but the alternative meaning to (*) would be 3 cards, i.e. opener is patterning
out.

And last but not least - some partnerships have a lot of choice of games seq.,
if you belong to this school, than (*) is most likely also not your cup of coffee,
..., although they way I described the 3S cue, the cue still leaves a spade contract
in the picture.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[the hog]

3451 with reversing values, ie about 17+

[Lurpoa]

dboxley, on 2010-November-16, 19:27, said:

---

I know this is elementary but I am teaching someone who won't listen (and maybe I am wrong). What does S have?

keep it simple: exactly 3 spades, 4 or more Hearts and 5 or more diamonds; at the most 1 club.
and 17+ H.

[Free]

It depends on where you live, for me it would be patterning out, so 3♠.

[helene_t]

In principle three spades but might be Hx-HHxx-HHxxx-xx. If you do not play Ingberman (or something similar) so 3♦ is non-forcing, opener shows extra values. I.e. regardless of the forcing character of 3♦, 3♠ is a game force.

[kenberg]

I would expect 3-4-5-1 shape. Of course we sometimes have to make do with a hand that doesn't quite fit, but that is what I would expect.

A while back there was a discussion about whether responder's auction denies five spades and since then I have been paying attention when it comes up. From what I have seen, the 3♦ call establishes the diamond fit and the gf, but should not deny five spades. Most of the time, opener will not have three spades since he already has accounted for at least nine of his cards in hearts and a minor. When opener lacks three spades, it will be difficult for responder to show strength and a good fit. For example: 1♦-1♠-2♥-2♠-3♣-3♦. How strong is that 3♦ call? How good is the fit? Better to establish the known ♦ fit, and the strength, first, then find the spade fit if it exists. This makes sense to me, and the hands that I have seen where the issue arises (true, not yet many) have fit well with this approach.

So, as noted earlier, the meaning of 3♠ can depend on whether responder would bid 3♦ or 2♠ when holding five spades, a diamond fit and some values. For me, 3♦ did not deny five spades, and 3♠ is a check to see if there is also a spade fit.

[Wackojack]

Your post raises the issue of whether or not your charges have taken on board Ingberman or Lebensohl conventions to show weakness. The strength of partner's 3♦ bid depends on this and plays a part in how many spades your bid of 3♠ promises. This might be useful in setting out the issues:
http://www.bridgebas...everse-bidding/

[straube]

I'm supposing that what most people play is that it is semi-natural with three spades or Hx, but a more useful meaning would be COGish looking for a club stopper.

Wouldn't that make sense for K AQJx AKQxx xxx ?

[luke warm]

well it seems that most of you are saying shape but i'm not sure that's how i'd take it at the table... is 3♦ establishing trumps? i'd think so as opener, so 3♠ could be a cue... i'd think something like x xxxx xxxxxx xx with most of my 17+ in the red suits

[Fluffy]

straube, on 2010-November-17, 13:12, said:

I'm supposing that what most people play is that it is semi-natural with three spades or Hx, but a more useful meaning would be COGish looking for a club stopper.

Wouldn't that make sense for K AQJx AKQxx xxx ?

In my style no, this is an easy 3♥ rebid since I open 1♥ with 5-6.