[Shugart23]

We play precision under ACBL general convention chart. We currently open 2NT to show both minors-5+ each.....Have been thinking of having 2NT have a double meaning...either 5/5 in minors OR a 6+ card Club suit, but I don't know if GCC allows this. Can anyone opine ?

[PhilKing]

Why not just google the chart and look at it?

[Shugart23]

To me, the GCC chart is not clear....Not to get off topic, but what the H*** do they mean the following is disallowed ? :

7. CONVENTIONAL RESPONSES, REBIDS AND A CONVENTIONAL
DEFENSE TO AN OPPONENT’S CONVENTIONAL DEFENSE after
natural notrump opening bids or overcalls with a lower limit of fewer than 10
HCP or with a range of greater than 5 HCP (including those that have two
non-consecutive ranges) and weak two-bids which by partnership agreement
are not within a range of 7 HCP and do not show at least five cards in the
suit.

So back on topic...I know I am allowed to open Mini-Roman 2D....I know I am allowed to open 2C showing 5+ Clubs or with 5, exactly a 4 card Major. A straight reading of the GCC does not make this apparent. I know I am not allowed to open multi-2D. None of this is clear from straight reading of the GCC.

So again, does anyone have thoughts on the original question ?

[straube]

6. OPENING BID AT THE TWO LEVEL OR HIGHER indicating two known suits, a minimum of 10 HCP and at least 5–4 distribution in the suits.
7. OPENING NOTRUMP BID AT THE TWO LEVEL OR HIGHER indi- cating at least 5-4 distribution in the minors.

I'd say not allowed. It can't be a club preempt under Midchart.

Also seems a bad idea. How would responder ever know when it's ok to play diamonds? Let's say he bids 3C on the assumption of a club preempt and it goes P P dbl, how does the partnership get to diamonds when it is right?

[PhilKing]

Shugart23, on 2013-July-07, 07:33, said:

So back on topic...I know I am allowed to open Mini-Roman 2D....I know I am allowed to open 2C showing 5+ Clubs or with 5, exactly a 4 card Major. A straight reading of the GCC does not make this apparent. I know I am not allowed to open multi-2D. None of this is clear from straight reading of the GCC.

So again, does anyone have thoughts on the original question ?

You are allowed mini Roman 2D, because it is a specifically listed permitted convention. Your 2NT idea is the typical off-base idea which has no chance whatsoever of being allowed.

You are allowed to open 2♣ (natural) because it is not a convention at all - it is a natural opening, and so is not listed in just the same way that 1♥ natural is not listed.

[Shugart23]

PhilKing, on 2013-July-07, 08:01, said:

You are allowed mini ROman 2D, because it is a specifically listed permitted convention. Your 2NT idea is the typical off-base idea which has no chance whatsoever of being allowed.

You are allowed to open 2♣ (natural) because it is not a convention at all - it is a natural opening, and so is not listed in just the same way that 1♥ antural is not listed.

[Shugart23]

Thanks...I don't know if it's an off-base idea ...I guess if multi-2D is an off base idea , then you are right...

But I do tend to agree that I don't think it is allowed under GCC. But I definitely appreciate the explanation as far as why the 2C is allowed and the mini-Roman. I did not know there is a list of what is allowed and what is not . Can you possibly point me to a site which lists what conventions are allowed ?

(The scheme that was being contemplated was that 2NT is either 5-5 in minors or Club preempt. With a weak hand, partner bids his minor with preference to Clubs. If bidding goes 2NT -3D and the 2NT was preempting Clubs, opener bids 3NT and partner passes or corrects and we takes our lumps)

[PhilKing]

Shugart23, on 2013-July-07, 08:17, said:

Thanks...I don't know if it's an off-base idea ...I guess if multi-2D is an off base idea , then you are right...

But I do tend to agree that I don't think it is allowed under GCC. But I definitely appreciate the explanation as far as why the 2C is allowed and the mini-Roman. I did not know there is a list of what is allowed and what is not . Can you possibly point me to a site which lists what conventions are allowed ?

(The scheme that was being contemplated was that 2NT is either 5-5 in minors or Club preempt. With a weak hand, partner bids his minor with preference to Clubs. If bidding goes 2NT -3D and the 2NT was preempting Clubs, opener bids 3NT and partner passes or corrects and we takes our lumps)

http://www.acbl.org/...ntion-Chart.pdf

[Shugart23]

Thanks, but that's just the link to the GCC and not to what conventions are specifically allowed....eg mini-Roman.....Is there another site you have ?

[Shugart23]

never mind...I see the mini roman in the 2D Thanks

[gwnn]

Why not play it as diamonds or both? It would work much better.

[wyman]

gwnn, on 2013-July-07, 10:02, said:

Why not play it as diamonds or both? It would work much better.

My thoughts exactly. That still doesn't solve the "it's illegal" problem, but it's theoretically much more sound.

[Shugart23]

Here's the complete scheme:

2NT Multi

This shows one of the following hands:-

Ÿ 5-9 points and at least 5-5 in the minors
Ÿ 11-15 points and exactly 5-5 in the majors.
Ÿ A 3 or 4-level Club Pre-empt

Responses are along the lines of responses to the Multi 2• Opening:-

Ÿ With a weak hand or one with game interest only opposite the Majors, Responder bids his better minor, giving preference to Clubs where possible. Opener passes with the minors or relays with the Majors. With a Club Pre-empt (Over 2NT-3•) Opener bids 3NT and now Responder passes or converts to 4
Ÿ With an invitational hand, containing at least one major and tolerance for at least one minor, Responder bids his better Major. Opener passes, bids 3NT with the Club Pre-empt or converts to 4 or 5with the Minors, and bids 4 of the major with an upper range hand with the Majors
Ÿ With a game-going balanced hand which wishes to play in 3NT opposite the minors or Clubs, or in at least game opposite the Majors, responder bids 3NT. Opener passes with the minors or Clubs and bids 4 with the Majors. Now 4• asks:

Ÿ 2NT - 3NT - 4 - 4• - 4 shows any minimum
- 4 shows Max with a Diamond shortage (4NT is Beta)
- 4NT shows Max with a Club shortage (5 is Beta)
- 5 shows a Diamond void (5• is Beta)
- 5• shows a Club void (no Beta permitted)

- 4/4 are both to play

- 4NT asks for cue bids

Ÿ With a strong distributional hand interested in game or slam opposite any hand type, Responder bids 4. Opener relays with 4• if he has the Majors or 4 if he has the Minors and 4NT with the Club Pre-empt.
2NT - 4 - 4• - 4 is Gamma in Hearts and
- 5 is Gamma in Spades. Asking bids are now established. All other bids over 4• are natural.

- 4 - 4 is Gamma in Clubs and
- 4NT is Gamma in Diamonds. Asking bids are now established. All other bids over 4 are natural. - 4NT All continuations are natural.

-
 xx
• KT9xx
 Kxxxxx  AJTxx
 Qxxx
• QJx
 A
Bidding
W E
2NT 3•1
1. No Game interest opposite Minors.

KQxxx
 ATxxx
• Qx
 x  A
 Qxxx
• KJTx
 AQxx
Bidding
W E
2NT 3NT1
42 No

1. Good enough for game opposite any. 2. Minimum.

[glen]

If opener has a 3 level club preempt, and responder has 5-5-3-0 10 points (void in clubs), what is the bidding in this structure?

[Shugart23]

glen, on 2013-July-07, 19:12, said:

If opener has a 3 level club preempt, and responder has 5-5-3-0 10 points (void in clubs), what is the bidding in this structure?

You have the same problem if Opener preempts with 3C opposite that hand. You end up in 3C or 3NT possibly and have potential problems

In the illegal scheme being discussed it would go 3C -3D-3NT and Responder passes or corrects to 4C and maybe you go down 5 doubled

[Zelandakh]

Not really. You see if Responder bids 3♣ here, not only have you suffered all of the disadvantages of transfer preempts, you are also playing 3♣ in your 5-0 fit instead of 3♦ in your 5-3 fit opposite the hand type with both minors. Or, if Opener is supposed to take 3♣ out into 3♦ with that hand, you have now lost the ability to play 3♣. This is why including a diamond preempt is better than a club preempt.

[Shugart23]

Zelandakh, on 2013-July-08, 06:49, said:

Not really. You see if Responder bids 3♣ here, not only have you suffered all of the disadvantages of transfer preempts, you are also playing 3♣ in your 5-0 fit instead of 3♦ in your 5-3 fit opposite the hand type with both minors. Or, if Opener is supposed to take 3♣ out into 3♦ with that hand, you have now lost the ability to play 3♣. This is why including a diamond preempt is better than a club preempt.

Well, not fair...You changed the question which was "what do you do if you have a club preempt and responder has 5-5-3-0" ?

If my partner preempts with a 3C bid, I'm certainly not going to start looking for a diamond fit, with 5-5-3-0 hand

[Zelandakh]

The point is that if your partner opens a club preempt, you know they have clubs and do not need to look for a diamond fit. If your partner opens 2NT that might be clubs or might be both minors, you have no idea where you belong. If your partner opens 2NT that might be diamonds or might be both minors, you know you belong in diamonds; and if you hold 5503 instead, you respond in clubs and partner with the diamonds-only hand bids diamonds. Can you see now why this is such a bad idea?

[Shugart23]

This is all just theoretical since can't use in ACBL world.....To show Diamonds, Opener uses Multi-2D approach. Can't just look at only one bid and critique, but need to look at all the parts and pieces and how it all hangs together...Of course, all approaches have a price and can't do everything.

eg Lebensohl gives up playing 2NT and Stayman gives up playing 2C for the trade-offs they give

[gwnn]

Zelandakh, on 2013-July-08, 08:44, said:

(snip)
Can you see now why this is such a bad idea?

The answer to this should be quite obvious by now