[bluenikki]

Consider the following deal, carefully constructed.

♠ Axx
♥ x
♦ Kxxx
♣ Axxxx

♠ x
♥ Axx
♦ Axxxx
♣ Kxxx

If no opponent has a void, it is laydown for five of either minor.

If no opponent has a singleton, it is laydown for seven of either minor.

Someone has to open, right?

I posed this years ago to the Kaplan-Sheinwold newsgroup, where "sound minor openings" are doctrine. One contributor said this is not a sound opening, so I'll pay off. No one defended opening.

What do you think?

[DavidKok]

Both of these are openings. I prefer not to play 'sound' anything. Also opening these hands can cost - it's not like you'll frequently find partner with the perfect 11HCP to make a grand on 22. The main benefit is being a step ahead, having bid something rather than nothing, if the opponents compete.

[smerriman]

It is meaningless to provide *both* hands when asking questions like this.

If I were in fourth seat with the second hand, then there is a chance that partner has the absolute perfect cards and we're cold for game.. and there is also a chance that the final contract will end in the opponents making some number of spades. The question is not whether the first chance exists.. but which is more likely?

Of course, some people will open every 11 point hand, and that's fine too.

[bluenikki]

smerriman, on 2022-July-29, 15:06, said:

It is meaningless to provide *both* hands when asking questions like this.

If I were in fourth seat with the second hand, then there is a chance that partner has the absolute perfect cards and we're cold for game.. and there is also a chance that the final contract will end in the opponents making some number of spades. The question is not whether the first chance exists.. but which is more likely?

Of course, some people will open every 11 point hand, and that's fine too.

These are not every 11 point hand. That is the point.

[johnu]

bluenikki, on 2022-July-29, 14:48, said:

I posed this years ago to the Kaplan-Sheinwold newsgroup, where "sound minor openings" are doctrine. One contributor said this is not a sound opening, so I'll pay off. No one defended opening.

What do you think?

I think the contributors in the KS newsgroup are beancounters.

[smerriman]

bluenikki, on 2022-July-29, 15:09, said:

These are not every 11 point hand. That is the point.

Right - your post sounded like the fact you can make game/slam was relevant to whether you should open, where it's not really the important aspect at all. If you provided just one hand and asked whether you should open, that's a better question. (And I would, but not in 4th seat.)

[pescetom]

I would open the first in first seat, either in third seat.

[bluenikki]

smerriman, on 2022-July-29, 15:23, said:

Right - your post sounded like the fact you can make game/slam was relevant to whether you should open, where it's not really the important aspect at all. If you provided just one hand and asked whether you should open, that's a better question. (And I would, but not in 4th seat.)

It is not a double dummy issue! They are the same hand.

If your partner is going to pass this hand out in 4th, doesn't that mean you must open it in 2nd?

[Cyberyeti]

bluenikki, on 2022-July-29, 18:45, said:

It is not a double dummy issue! They are the same hand.

If your partner is going to pass this hand out in 4th, doesn't that mean you must open it in 2nd?

I'd open either hand in any position other than the hand with the stiff spade in 4th.

[Douglas43]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-July-30, 00:33, said:

I'd open either hand in any position other than the hand with the stiff spade in 4th.

Like Cyberyeti I'd certainly open the South hand every time. Not so keen on North because I have to rebid 2♣ with an empty suit. Make it A109xx and I'm opening that too (except 4th).

[smerriman]

bluenikki, on 2022-July-29, 18:45, said:

If your partner is going to pass this hand out in 4th, doesn't that mean you must open it in 2nd?

Hiding because this is a little offtopic to what the real question was:

Spoiler

Consider this carefully constructed deal..

xxx Kxxx AQxxx x
x AQxxx Kxxx xxx

If neither opponent has a void, you're cold for 11 tricks in hearts. Does that mean North must open in 2nd seat?

I open your original hand.. but the reason isn't related in any way to the fact that if I passed, we may have passed out a hand where we're cold for game.

[bluenikki]

smerriman, on 2022-July-30, 04:11, said:

Hiding because this is a little offtopic to what the real question was:

Spoiler

Consider this carefully constructed deal..

xxx Kxxx AQxxx x
x AQxxx Kxxx xxx

If neither opponent has a void, you're cold for 11 tricks in hearts. Does that mean North must open in 2nd seat?

I open your original hand.. but the reason isn't related in any way to the fact that if I passed, we may have passed out a hand where we're cold for game.

You should *want* to open those hands. It's the weaker defense that dissuades you.

[mycroft]

The K/S people are stuck with their system choices: weak NT, 5-card majors, and *sound minors*.

They pay off to these hands because if they don't, when it goes 1♦-1♠-whatever-3♠, what does opener do? Pass, I assume; after which they are likely to have their best score end in 30. And even if it's this hand and they can make something, it probably will go p-p-X-AP anyway. After all, minimum 11 though it is, it's got 2+ tricks; and if you pull with 2+ tricks from +500 into a minus score because you're embarrassed about your opening, partner is very likely to mutter something about "I could save you from your first mistake..."

This is one of the places where an Acol-style weak NT system wins over the K/S style. But being able to assume a strong NT in opener's hand after 1m-1M-whatever-3M wins a lot, too.

I would absolutely pay off to this hand in my K/S system, and smile and go on to the next. Knowing that three other hands this session my partner or I will be having a much easier auction than the rest of the room.

Note: a very dirty simulation implies that the opponents are only passing this out about 30% of the time, less than that if we're not dealer. Now whether third hand will do anything over second hand's preempt is a question for the ages; whether -100 or 200 in 3 of whichever major they decide to play in is going to be worth it (and whether we can get all our tricks in 3M, given that I'm sure it involves other major to the A, ruff, minor to partner (underleading either the A or the K), ruff, and then take as many aces and kings will cash after that) is also a question for the ages. But those who do open these hands have to find that defence a whole bunch of the time too, with -x30 hanging over their head if they don't.

[mikeh]

There are many reasons one doesn’t find K-S being played at the highest levels of the game, and the requirement for sound minor openings is, I suspect, one of them.

While there are a few ‘sound’ bidders, especially at unfavourable, the great majority of experts strain to open the bidding. These hands have 5 controls! I can’t imagine passing any hand with five controls…and a losing trick count of 7. Both check the boxes I use to assess openings with fewer than 12 hcp…although in both my current partnerships we open virtually all 11 counts in 1st and second.

Would we reach slam? I doubt it. Would we reach game? Probably….and definitely if the bidding begins with 1D.

Whether we’d open 1D with the 3=1=4=5 is debatable. Both my partners would, I think, but I’d be reluctant. Since 1ad promises 4+ and is always unbalanced, the 3=1=5=4 hand will dribble to game.

I’d be ok with missing slam.

Of course the opponents will often be bidding with their 18 hcp and 18 major suit cards….heck, that might even make it easier to reach game.

[akwoo]

Even playing K/S, I'll open the second though not the first, in any seat.

Yeah partner might expect more from me and we'll end up in some impossible 4 level contract when the opponents jump in. Too bad. Sometimes those impossible contracts make.

[Douglas43]

smerriman, on 2022-July-30, 04:11, said:

Hiding because this is a little offtopic to what the real question was:

Spoiler

Consider this carefully constructed deal..

xxx Kxxx AQxxx x
x AQxxx Kxxx xxx

If neither opponent has a void, you're cold for 11 tricks in hearts. Does that mean North must open in 2nd seat?

I open your original hand.. but the reason isn't related in any way to the fact that if I passed, we may have passed out a hand where we're cold for game.

Without spoiling the spoiler the opponents must also have a good double fit. Game should be decent in their direction too?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I may pass the 1st, but I would open the 2nd, the main difference is,
the 2nd has a rebid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[bluenikki]

P_Marlowe, on 2022-August-01, 02:00, said:

Hi,

I may pass the 1st, but I would open the 2nd, the main difference is,
the 2nd has a rebid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Special KS situation: Opening 1♦ and rebidding 2♣ shows 15+. So they're not really different.